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[vinay]

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Hi Guys,

Since fixing the Heli took almost 6 hrs yesterday night till 4 30 AM, (http://www.rcindia.org/helis/hk-450-mt-build-thread/msg13851/#new) , so no flying today Good thing that it gives me more time on the SIM.

Since I was free today, thought I will build my first plane . With all different kind of motors from 20Grams to 180 watts/batteries/ ESCs/Props/Gyros at hand, electronics should not be a problem.

Well I will decide the electronics for later depending upon the body weight with wheels etc, but the main features of the plane will be modified slightly from the standard plan.

1)I plan to add GWS Retracts if the plan allows me some space.
2)Since TEA RACER is not a beginners plane and is extremely sensitive to inputs and since I am a beginner I will be adding a Gyro to the Ailerons and if required to the elevators as well to assist me in flying this guy! (Now I wish I had an SD 10G, so I could set the gain on both the Gyros remotely. )

Gyros used will be HK401 in rate mode/ if the plane is too sensitive then in Head Lock mode

Now to choose the colour, I have gray/white/yellow/blue coro with me. White being the strongest one.
Yellow seems to be the original color on the site.

More suggestions/Tips/ WELCOME

[anwar]

If you trust your gyros significantly to help reduce crashes, you are probably going to get surprised

Remember that gyros tend to hold the aircraft in their orientation religiously, even if that orientation is taking them nose-in towards the ground  

More sim time and flying in a grassy area sound a lot more worthy than trusting gyros.

[vinay]

Ya, agreed   if you point a plane ground wards and w/o inputs from the TX then the plane with Gyros is a goner (RIP) I cant control laughing. Iam pretty sure many cant control laughing at that joke.

But just want to reduce the sensitivity of the plane > A third Gyro(from Heli) and larger throws on the control surfaces means I can hover a Tea Racer

I am using Gyros just for fun of using them. I want RC to be more experimental-fun rather than pure flying/ pure building pleasure.

Ya as I said, Please pour in more suggestions.

EDIT: Also since T RACER is a sensitive plane, a Gyro can help holding the plane in the same direction w/o inputs due to wind or when landing. It also helps in flying at slow speeds. What do you say?

[anwar]

EDIT: Also since T RACER is a sensitive plane, a Gyro can help holding the plane in the same direction w/o inputs due to wind or when landing. It also helps in flying at slow speeds. What do you say?

Of course, it was fun to fly by brother's little foamie with couple of gyros on them.  It would go straight and level pretty much forever !

But you have to remember that ultimately, YOU are flying the plane, and they are just HELPERS.

[vinay]

Guys please suggest some colour combinations.

Thinking of yellow on the wing/tail/elevators and either white/gray/blue on the fuse.

[vinay]

Progress:

I just finished the paper cut out. There seems to be a problem problems .

1)The paper cut outs are for 2mm coro and I have 3mm.
2)The motor mount have to be heavily modified as I use a out runner vs the designs inrunner.
3)I need to modify the design for landing gear with retracts.
4)I need to add the Rudder, which is not present in the design
5)I need to modify the design to build walls/surfaces for the Gyro mount.
6)Since I am using 3mm coro/gyro/regtracts with servos/wheels which will increase the weight, the chord length/wing span will be SLIGHTLY increased by an inch to give the same flying characteristics.
7)Planning to increase the width of the tail stabiliser by 1/2 inch on each side. and the rudder throw by 1/2 inch as it gets really windy at jakkur.

For some reason I feel like I need to add Gyro to the rudder rather than other control surfaces.

[ujjwaana]

This build seems more of a 'Gyro Hall of Fame' than 'My first Build from Plan' . 'Gyro' also reminds the Scientist character from the 'Ducktales'  series!!

you plan Sounds good Vinay, but please re-consider putting Retracts -

1. They might need larger ply/veneer reinforcement where you  attach to fuse/Wing,
2. They would require at least Symm wings with ribs where the retracts should park
3. You would also need  hatch for retract else the drag from open fuse may be huge.
4. Weight. When you are already using 3mm instead of 2mm, weight should be prime concern. If keep on adding weight, you can't cruise it at slow speed

Keep the retract for your fist Balsa build... you are going Nitro anyway!!

Post the build/cutting pic/video soon....

[vinay]

No moving away from retracts, Of course I thought of all the points you made earlier, but retracts will be there. I will be adding a lot of reinforcements for them though, the thermocol i took from you yesterday is a good enough for that. and increasing the wing span to reduce the flying speed.

Balsa build from scratch? No way, I dont want to waste my time on that crap.

if(vinay.getLikes().contains("NITRO")){

planes = PlaneTypes.ARF
}

[vinay]

Since I had to modify the motor mount area, I had to decide on the motor upfront. I chose to use http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=5655 . prop not yet decided will decide based on reviews later.
But Since Tea racers are designed for speeeeed!, I will be running this motor on a 3S 1500 or 3S 2200 Lipo. I have a bigger motor but that is a 1050KV. Not good for this app. I want speeeeed !

I already have the motor with me.

[ujjwaana]

...the thermocol i took from you yesterday is a good enough for that. and increasing the wing span to reduce the flying speed.
Balsa build from scratch? No way, I dont want to waste my time on that crap.

All the best then!! You are no less complicated than me!
I think reinforcing with thin hard plastic to secure 'nut and bolt' is a god idea. Foam/Coro wont hold bolts well.

If increase the WS, proportionally increase the fuse length, esp the distance between pitch axis and tail end.

And about Plan build with Balsa, (not calling 'Scratch', as Capt Manish Flyingboxcar, re-iterated) you would realize the romance between Nitro and Balsa someday, may while here itself or when you fly away!!

Pics man pics...With my prop-cut-fingers, I have to cool my self with your build pics for the while, before I move ahead with my F-22 build

[vinay]

I agree I love balsa planes, but not scratch building, even if GOD says love balsa scratch builing, I wouldnt, Its simple waste of time(for me). Regarding increasing the fuse? No, i will increase the chord and span by 0.75 inch on each side, fairly keeping the proportion. dont want to change the cut out plans for the fuse. way too complicated for me.

[vinay]

Ok, as you asked for the photo, Iam posting one. This would be the final electronics, Iam expecting 600+ grams of static thrust from the motor at bangalore's altitude.

The BEC on the ESC wont be enough. I will be using an external Turnigy 5A switched BEC. Time to solder a battery splitter for the External BEC.

I have modified the design for the cowl part for the motor mount, Time to cut out coro, till then enjoy the tasty pic.

Thats 6000 Rs worth of electronics for a simple plane  , but as I said, its a kind of experimental fun for me. Hope I dont crash hard 

[sahilkit]

cool

[vinay]

cool

Thanks dude.

Just finished cutting 2 pieces by 7.30 got a call from office and got busy till 10 30.

[vinay]

actually the retractable landing gear n stuff should make the model really cool, so which one MK I, MK II, MK III?

Nah, just the GWS landing gear activated by HXT 500/900 servos. If you are referring to air retracts, Iam not that advanced of an aero modeller.

Just brought the thread to life.

BTW, I had another butane torch so here is what I did:

Just threw a flame on the coro and saw that it removes some kind of Oil and makes it looks dull. I had to really be fast as the torch I used was 2500 degree centigrade wala and was burning holes  

Then I stuck 2 similarly burnt pieces using HobbyKing medium CA.
Took anonther 2 similar pieces w/o butane burnt and glued those as well using HK medium CA.

The result: when I tore apart, the butane burnt pieces were sticking 3 to 4 times stonger than the non burnt pieces.  

Now to try the scrubber experiment tomorrow using scotch brite

[vinay]

Here is a way to flash coro. I plan to do it only on parts that I am actually gluing.

[sahilkit]

The result: when I tore apart, the butane burnt pieces were sticking 3 to 4 times stonger than the non burnt pieces.

but u were able to tear the two pieces apart ?

[anwar]

Plain old epoxy should do the job, right ?  Are the results that different enough to go through this process (as compared to using any good epoxy) ?

[vinay]

but u were able to tear the two pieces apart ?

Ya, I was able to tear the 2 pieces apart, but it was so strong that it was like literally tearing the coro itself apart.

Plain old epoxy should do the job, right ?  Are the results that different enough to go through this process (as compared to using any good epoxy) ?

Anwar, Iam using this process to make joins between flat surface to flat surface. If I use epoxy there will it not make the already heavy plane heavier?
There are lots of flat surface to flat surface joins in Tea Racer. He has totally avoided edge to edge join to avoid the weak link totally.

My questions, If i slightly increase the wing span and chord by 1 inch, and a similar 1/2 inch in the tail stabilizer, and keep the body same length. Then how will it effect the flying characteristics? I am also increasing the control surface area a bit bigger, but keeping  throws smaller. Am I doing it right?

Iam doing these to counteract the added weight of Gyros, landing gears and extra servos and wheels and a heavy tail steering assembly.

[vinay]

Just finised all the cut outs from coro and glued half the fuse. Time to fit electronics before closing the fuse finally. My main worry is how to fit the landing gear retracts

[RotorZone]

Just threw a flame on the coro and saw that it removes some kind of Oil and makes it looks dull. I had to really be fast as the torch I used was 2500 degree centigrade wala and was burning holes 

Are you sure it is 2500degC ? Butane flame is about half that temperature as far as I know. Not enough for melting aluminum. I have been on the lookout for a portable torch like the butane ones that can be used for Aluminum. There are LPG torches available, but am a little scared to experiment with the cooking gas cylinder.

[vinay]

This is what I have: sorry, its 2k not 2.5 my bad.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1319

and

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1320

[RotorZone]

I don't think it is 2k either. The video doesn't melt a penny completely, so don't think it has any chance against Al oxide.

[sundaram]

You may need a Butane Torch something like the biggest one in the photos for the Job which are posted under you may also make do with the second torch the third one for which you have posted the link may be too small

Ebay India Links where you can get the biggest and the bigger on are posted for your ref

http://cgi.ebay.in/HONEST-501-Jet-Flame-BUTANE-MICRO-TORCH-for-SHOULDERIG_W0QQitemZ120539773378QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_203?hash=item1c10baf9c2#ht_5711wt_1165
   
http://cgi.ebay.in/BUTANE-MICRO-TORCH-SOLDERING-WELDING-COOKING_W0QQitemZ120539773356QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_203?hash=item1c10baf9ac#ht_6263wt_1165

I am not sure weather it can melt Aluminium or weld copper though the post claims that it can, I personally have never tried doing it till date. About Temp I do not have any Instruments to measure it as of now. I can surely try and give you the feedbacks of melting of metal aspect and Temp aspect with IR Temp gauge at Unit.

The biggest Torch will surely meet your requirement.

[vinay]

I don't think it is 2k either. The video doesn't melt a penny completely, so don't think it has any chance against Al oxide.

Just out of curiosity! why do you want to melt metal?

[vinay]

Quitting on using retracts, the space inside the airfoil is too less to fix servos in an angle so as to use retracts . I will try to use standard spring wire landing gear instead. If even that is not possible, then this plane will belly land

[RotorZone]

Col,

Do you have those torches ? If so, would appreciate if you can test on Al. The ebay page mentions it works only for thin foils or small pieces.

Vinay,

I have an ultimate bipe that needed a custom muffler. I was not happy with the workmanship of the fellow who made it. I think I can do a much better job than him 

[sundaram]

You mean like Die Cast the Custom Muffler?

[ujjwaana]

Quitting on using retracts, the space inside the airfoil is too less to fix servos in an angle so as to use retracts . I will try to use standard spring wire landing gear instead. If even that is not possible, then this plane will belly land

Stitch in time saves nine. Great that you took a timely decision! Pictures...

[vinay]

Stitch in time saves nine. Great that you took a timely decision! Pictures...

Only the cuttings/glueing are complete, Electronics needs to be mounted. I can fix the servos inside directly, but for the sake of Gyros, I am planning to make a removable square box, that can be easily removed from the plane if I dont need gyros/ or for tweaking the Gyros. I can set the gain/mode for the Gyros remotely from the TX as I will be using a 7 channel receiver, and all the channels on the TX/RX are proportional.

Looks like I wont be able to do much till this Saturday.

EDIT: I have increased the wing span of the plane by 2 cms on each side, chord remaining the same. I have increased the tail fin by 1 cm on each side and the control surface of the tail fin by 1 cm. Rudder height by 1 cm and length by 1.5 cm. to accumulate the extra weight of gyros and the wheels/landing gear. and more to behave like a 3D plane. Hope it at least flies

The wing is a 2 layered coro, yet to give it a symmetrical aerofoil shape. The Rudder fin(just the part that moves) on the final plane will be yellow.

[vinay]

Where to put the landing gear? To the wing or to the fuse in front of the wing?

[ujjwaana]

Yuppie!! great top see the pictures!! Great man!! Now my F-22 is 80% done, I can start the Tea Racer!! do share some pain to learn experiences ! I have scores from F-22

[vinay]

There was absolutely no pain till now except that the coro used was 3mm instead of the designs 2mm. So you have to change the cuttings accordingly.

[ujjwaana]

Planned any re-enforcement for fuse ? like Veneer Ply or Balsa cage structure ? I wonder where were you planning to put the retracts !  The plan is so tight!

As for the landing gear, get some good spring wire  (get some for me as well) and put it under the Fuse, tack on the CG (1/3 from leading edge). Going with this, you have no choice other than dreaded Trail dragger config. Nose wheel is suited only when you put the main landing gear under the wing. But sky is limit!

[RotorZone]

You mean like Die Cast the Custom Muffler?

No, just welding it together.

[vinay]

I already had the spring wire Landing gear from HK(available at Sai also - info for BM*). So no worries to go hunting for them, I am still thinking about putting it exactly ON CG, I saw that the Mustang that Abhay had was actually running on 2 wheels before taking off. And a small stone on the runway will make the plane tip and nose dive. Still thinking what to do.

 Should I put it a little further front of CG? Will that be OK?

No reinforcements, the plan already makes the fuse have 2 layers of coro in it. And there is no way I am going to use balsa in it for any reason   .

*BM = borrowman! 

[sundaram]

No, just welding it together.

I am sure about copper tubes and brass tubes bracing since it is done in AC copper tube bracing with Butane torch, but is it not the alluminium melting and bracing requires inert gas atmosphere for prevention of Al Oxide formation and burning of alluminium?


Vinay

Nice pictures there, waiting to see the finished product and expecially when it flies. Best wishes to you.
Since in my opinion tail dragger seems to be the best configuration for this plane, Landing gear is surely required to be ahead of CG to prevent nose tipping during landing and take off.

[vinay]

Thanks Sundar, I will take care of the CG part for the landing gear as you suggested.

[ujjwaana]

I think the new member Sethji's planes have your landing gear answers

http://www.rcindia.org/rc-people/sethji-from-kolkata-calcutta/msg16461/#new

[sundaram]

Col,
Do you have those torches ? If so, would appreciate if you can test on Al. The ebay page mentions it works only for thin foils or small pieces.

The bigger torch surely is melting Alluminium disc of size 1 Inch dia 4 mm thick in 3 min it was round blob of liquid alluminium. middle one is melting the same size disk in 7 Mins. the smaller one is just getting it red hot.

[vinay]

I think the new member Sethji's planes have your landing gear answers

http://www.rcindia.org/rc-people/sethji-from-kolkata-calcutta/msg16461/#new

Not able to find any tail dragger there and no discussion of landing gear either!

[ujjwaana]

Vinay, above link was for landing gear as general, esp ones having a nose wheel instead. Tail dragger you would anyway like to avoid.

[vinay]

Ok, after a long long time with the updates. Finally got some time and interest to continue with planes.  

Iam keeping the build as simple as possible.

1)Motor mounted with epoxy.

2)Servo mounted with servo tape from great planes. Note that the manual says that when I fold the wing it will form a aerofoil. But IT DID NOT. instead it formed 2 flat plane surfaces touching each other. To get the aero foil, I wanted to keep a strip of something hard but light thing. After thinking for some time, came up with the idea of mounting 3 coro strips on top of each other.

3) I have inserted the CF rod inside this coro bar itself to get all that strength.

4)The finished wing.

[vinay]

Since I THINK there was a VERY MINUTE disturbance in the line I cut, the wing got warped when I bent the coro on the leading edge. I will go home and fix this somehow.

Any suggestions welcome. 

[vinay]

60 Year old switch at my native still working LIKE NEW 

[ujjwaana]

Wing wrapping (shear)is pretty serious and would give a 'Trimming nightmare once in air.
Balsa builder use "shear webbing" where they place 2/3mm Birch/Plywood strip between the top and bottom spars. The grain of the webbing sheet is a perpendicular to the Wing span (along the chambering/thickness of the wing).

The Coro sheet you have placed along with the CF rods have flutes parallel to direction along the the wing span. Remove them and neatly cut 4 coro sheet with the width as much as the thick the wing should be. Stack them in group of 2 on either side of the CF rot, 'Verically' instead of horizontly you have done currently.

Would love to see your TeaRacer fly this weekend. Hope it doesn't rain.

And the 60 year old toggle switch reminds me a smilar one in my parternal grand father house. 80Y old. You can use them between your battery and the LiPO balancer  

[vinay]

I thought of doing as u said - the spars idea, but looks like then I would need a spar at every 1 inch distance or else the wing is warping.

Ya, I will remove the wing warping some how after going home.

[anwar]

Old one, but what happened to this thread ?

Remembered this when someone brought a beautiful Tea Racer to our field !

[praveen]

even i think so  once he showed me this plane when i visited his place ,build quality was excellent   ! even though he has best and superb gadget (Electric heli) he not flying past from few monthssssssssssss!! hope tooooooooo busy with his work!
i hope he will get back to flying soon and try my glow models!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vinay]

Will soon be back with vengeance.  > Need atleast 2 months from now. Been busy searching for house near new office(which would mean hoskote would just be 10 KM or so for me). Have to shift settle down and reboot. Will make sure even Rajesh joins back  

BTW the servos needs to be attached and trust angle is slightly wrong I guess, which probably ujjwal or ashta should be able to help me out in the first shot.  

I haven't got the time even to visit Sujju's store which is 3 KM from my house  

[RotorZone]

Hey, I maidened the trex 250 with a couple of flights, so technically I'm back already. Your turn now

How's the water logging at hoskote ? Anybody still going there ? I was planning to go there and complete the beastx setup last weekend, but dropped plans after seeing the heavy rains on friday and saturday.

[ujjwaana]

Vinay has been keeping 'Very' busy these days. My first RC pals in Bangalore, I haven't met him in the past 6 months or so! Even my constant coaxing to come to the fields doesn't help. I am sure many people in the local club miss his Heli flying..

[vinay]

I did'nt know I had fans  Dude, let me know how your 8fg goes. I might buy one as well.

[ujjwaana]

, let me know how your 8fg goes. I might buy one as well.

You spill the beans man.... this time I am at the mercy of Airport customs... should there with me by July Mid

[vinay]

Dont worry dude, I got tonnes worth of goods with mom this time   It even had whey proteins. I tot customs will catch it thinking it of somekind of drugs (under the scanner), open the suitcase and bust the electronics. but nothing happened  

I sent you the mail on how to escape if caught 

[RotorZone]

Dude, let me know how your 8fg goes. I might buy one as well.

It is quite nice so far. I have only the trex 250 setup on it, no issues so far. If you have any specific questions, let me know. The one in the market now is the 8fg Super 14 channel tx (which I hope is telemetry capable when futaba releases it).

[anwar]

The 8FG to 8FG-Super is mostly a free, doable by end user software upgrade.  On the hardware side, they say the only difference is the length of the sliders on the sides (as some people found the original design hard to access).

And it is said that all 8FGs are telemetry capable, they are just waiting for the receivers and telemetry modules to be launched by Futaba. Guess there may be another user land software upgrade to go with it.

[vinay]

Sounds good so far. But bro would be visiting me only in jan, Till then my RDS with 2 Sanwa RX and 6 Assan RX should be more than I would ever need.  But I have decided not to buy anymore sanwa/Assan RXs. It would be futaba/Orange only.

I have no problem with my RDS/Assan setup though. Both are working rock solid. Its just the no support for HV on the RX that bothers me into investing more. I dont think Sanwa can keep up with Spektrum/JR/Fut unless there duplicate RX and I felt this long time back, hence the assan hack.

BTW how are orange RXs compared to assan/fr sky? Divyam had called me yesterday and I suggested him to google Turnigy 9X with FR Sky or assan. 9X are I guess available at Sujju's place and only the module/RX be imported.

[ujjwaana]

Divyam had called me yesterday and I suggested him to google Turnigy 9X with FR Sky or assan. 9X are I guess available at Sujju's place and only the module/RX be imported.

Yes it is the newer Futaba 8FG Super only - two of them would debut in Hoskote this month.
Turnigy 9x/Flysky is not 2.4G ready out of the box ? Sad.

[vinay]

Its a plug in module right? No soldering required though. But end up near 8 K. Advantage - 9 channel. Disadvantage not sure if can be used with gassers.

[anwar]

Waking up Vinay's thread

Here is a Tea Racer built from coro on our field... from yesterday's session.

[VC]

Why do they have the Stars and Bars markings on both the port and starboard wing Dorsal (Upper) surfaces? The standard rule for US a/c after Sept. 1943 was to have the Stars and Bars on every aircraft's Port Dorsal and Starboard Ventral (lower) wing surfaces.

So what if it is a SPAD, markings have to be adhered to, or else do away with markings.

Sorry if I sound like a puritan, I am.

[anwar]

I believe the markings were done by the builder's wife (quite likely as instructed by him)... and making it "look good" was the only intention.  "Scale" was not even an afterthought.