RC India

Its a new Belt CP 6 channel Heli and yet to fly. It's not taking off, today at field, I tried hard (with full battery Charge) but it didnt even took off.

The problem was motor was cutting off when giving full throttle. Even at lower throttle if kept running at constant speed it cut off in few seconds.

 :headscratch: is it strange or because its fresh it need few charging cycles (LiPo) to release full current?

Can anyone Advice :help: on this.

Who set this up, or did it come RTF ?  Since it is collective pitch, we have to see if the pitch curve is active and whether the swash plate is moving along with increased throttle.

Have you verified the output voltage of the battery ?

Its an RTF, so i hope pitch is set.

and I didnt checkd the voltage either, will that help?

Fresh or not, lipos should give out the right voltage.  Please post further diagnosis, like how many cells in your battery, how do you charge it, how do you know it is fully charged and have you verified the same etc.

Also, do you see the swash plate moving when you increase throttle ?

its a 3 cell, 1800mh 11.1 volt.

Charged it till the green light on the charger goes solid.

it took around about more than 3 hours.

swash is moving up when I am increasing the throttle.

how much possibility is that LiPo is the culprit? >:(

It would be good to verify if the lipo output voltage is around 12.6 volts fully charged.

I hope you have followed the manual correctly about flight setup.  For example, there are steps like keep the throttle stick and throttle trim to the lowest position.  Make sure the pitch trim knob (the one on the top left side of the TX) is kept at the middle. 

Please confirm the above (battery volts, if you have a multimeter), and the proper procedure to start... and let us see where that takes us :)

Well I followed the manual instructions as mentioned.

I dont have a multimeter as this is my first electric. so probably will buy one soon. I hope only after that I'll be able to give some authentic information about battery volts.

Is it a common problem with electrics or some unlucky like me  ??? face it!!

Most importantly, you should never really have to go all the way up to full throttle.  If you do not have lift off even at 75% throttle, something is wrong and needs to be fixed !

Here is where attention to detail is important, and we have seen beginners "take things easy" when it comes to such things ;) For example, at what position is your pitch trim knob now ?

Please ensure that the main blades are revolving the RIGHT WAY. Which heli is it exactly ?

Regards

Please see the current settings on the Tx

OK, that looks good, just keep the throttle trim at the bottom (lowest position) too before you plug in the battery.

I hope you have already checked the direction of rotation of the main blades (clockwise when you look down at the heli from above), as suggested by Bill.  They should be pushing air downwards (at least at mid throttle or above).

exactly, they are rotating in right direction i.e clock wise. Ya when I plug the battery i keep the throttle trim at the minimum. when i plug in there is sound which confirm that its now ready.

When I start pusing the throttle, rotating blades start rotating but... if i didnt increase the throttle in few seconds they stops as if the power to them is cut, if i increase the throttle again higher... they rotate with a increased speed but the cutoff problem persists as they again go silent in few seconds.

 :banghead:  y this is with me.  :(... first customs.. now this problem. I think its zinxed.... >:(

Hmmm..  if it is stopping after running for a few seconds even at low throttle, then either the battery is too weak (not charged properly), or there is some kind of overload in the power system causing the ESC to cut the motor off.  Is the motor/ESC getting too hot ?

not really, none of them is getting really hot. I think there is some problem with charging. Does ESC have low volt auto cut function ?

Pretty much all the current ESCs have low voltage cut off, and some have temperature based cut off too.

I have 2 Belt CP's and the default ESC which comes with Belt CP is Crap so need to change that in the first place. Now till the time to you get new 40A ESC try the following

- Check the Battery - you mentioned that it is charging till the green light is solid which means it's fully charged. But to be sure I would recommend checking the voltage with a multi meter on fully charged battery and you should get a reading of around 12.59 to 12.60.

- ESC - Setup - some times you need to initialize the ESC and adjust the throttle range to do this, keep the Throttle at max and plug in the battery, you will hear one beep at this very moment bring down the throttle to min and you should hear 2 beeps confiriming the throttle range and after this you should get your normal ready beeps. But to be sure just plug out the battery and then replug this time with the throttle at min position.

- Blades - Make sure that the blades are installed correctly that is the blade stickers should be visible on the top.

- Now - I hope this is not the case but - Here goes it can be that your motor is worn out (Bad motor winding).If this is the case you need need to replace the motor. Motor problem symptoms - The motor runs very slowly on the wrong side when you give some throttle but as you give some more immidiate throttle it runs in the correct direction making the blades spin.

It would be Best if you can post some pics or a small video of the heli showing us the swash movement and motor situation. Btw swash should go up when throttle goes up and vice a versa, you need to play with the servo reversing switches on your tx if thats not the case.

I hope this helps

Hellyflyer

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR VALUABLE SUGGESTIONS. WILL GET back to you with my observations and possibly the video. Meanwhile can you suggest option for ESC available locally for it.

Its surprising that a RTF :banghead: , never flown heli may have such problems. They should not call it as RTF then.

I tried for throttle range but when throttle stick at max... and i  plug the battery no beep. ready beep come only when its at zero position.

Motor is ok and no symptoms as you suggested.

It may also be due to wrong settings of the ESC for battery type(i.e yours is 3s (9v cutoff) & it could be set for 4s where the cutoff is at 12V).See what brand & type is your esc & search online for the manual of the ESC. Post it here also so that somebody may be familiar with that one.

Check the angle of the blade it should be facing upwards at lower throttle. For extreme 3d(inverted flight) they place lower throttle as downangle where middle in horizontal and above middle is upper angle this is where the heli takes off.

Check rcindia.org  if someone is selling a 40amp ESC (esnure that the esc as atleast 3amp BEC in it), Post your requirement in the wanted section of this site, I am not sure if you can get it locally otherwise if no other option then buy it from Hobbyking.com or Rctimer.com

Now as you mentioned that the ESC is not going in the setup mode (no beeps when you are in max throttle) this clearly shows a faulty ESC and if this is a stock Esky ESC then it's not card programable.

So don't mess around anymore with electronics as you might end up burining your motor. Arrange for a ESC and then try remainng experiments.

Hellyflyer

First Of all, Dont worry, there is nothing that cannot be fixed, and in your case your heli is new, so the chances of a major issues are minimum, assuming that there are no manufacturing defects.

Please check the battery voltage as soon as the ESC cuts off, I suspect that the battery is not being charged properly. Could be an issue with the charger itlef. Does the Green Light on the charger go solid & how long does it take to come to that state from the time you put the battery on charge??

Share this info and I may be able to help you solve this mystery !!
Amit

Dear asinghatiya,

The problem is with the cell rather than Electronics in my opinion.

However as said by Anwar sir, please check full voltage with a multimeter. A cheap multimeter costs here at Kolkata 90:Rs:. So, don't afraid, purchase your own.

With the throttle, if the battery pack has not sufficient voltage, it starts up and then the source drop makes terminal voltage down and therefore electronics under-voltage safety activates and everything got stops. Just make throttle after 10 seconds after putting throttle 0% after auto shut off, it should start again and again goes off.

So, Please check the battery voltage and if required, charge with a separate charger. You may charge each cell individually upto 4.1 volt.

I had same experience with my RTF helly HAWK4.
from the date of purchase, it wont start. I just charged externally and later checked that it flew well. Then I got after the charger. Checked that the charging Cord is insufficient and shows high resistance. Moreover, in Battery pack there was unbalancing (Cheap battery pack used and therefore different charge pattern.

Just take out the cell and charge individually upto full voltage. After the charge of 5th Cell out of 6 cell NiMH, found the culprit. Now, just give shock therapy to the culprit cell and survived that one. Now make full charge of each cell.  :giggle:

After fixing to helly, flown with awesome speed and that is my first RC Heli experience. Still now, after 5 years, It's still intact and the cell capacity was not reduced very much.

Thanks, Hope your problem will be solved soon. :o

I think the cell is a problem. The total output voltage is 8.3 which should be more than 11 I guess. How to find which cell is a problem and after finding it out how to sort that? Or I should buy a new LIPO?? >:( what a mess is this yaar, a fresh LiPo is faulty how to trust another new one??

In the Lipo picture I can see 4 chrging wires. but there is a terminal where there is no wire.. is it ok ?

Surely low terminal voltage.
As seen from the top PCB layout, it should contain 3 cell and placed side by side with spacers (Insulation too). See my picture. (Spacers are not shown but without which, any cell may short-circuited)

Here i found 3 cell container placed side by side. therefore, each cell potential can be checked by using multimeter with
=========================||
Cell1 - Red & Blue,                    ||
Cell2 - Blue and yellow               ||=============> Each cell voltage should be 4 volt.
Cell3 - Yellow and black.             ||
=========================||
If you see that any cell potential is totally zero, that may be a due to short-circuit.
I found strange in the packing and as not seen fron side, it is impossible to check the type of spacer/insulation between cell body. Please check the cell body to body potential too and what zero, if any, make space and just charge the faulty cell with separate charger.

The final discharge and output voltage must be above 12 volt (12.6 actually)at full charge.

Please post more picture from side and the data of cell voltage.
If require, you can de-solder each cell from PCB and charge the faulty cell after checking.

Thanks

This is really a learning exp, I checked there is no voltage between red and blue.

how to charge this cell?? or this cell is now gone. Also do I now need to buy a new battery altogather or this could be repaired? and who can replair this ?

visibally there is no short circuit.. and the cells are arranged as shown in your picture. ....but how to find short circuit if any?

It is sort of dangerous, and typically not worth it doing cell surgery.  Please get another battery. 

If you brought it online with some warranty, you should have contacted the seller BEFORE opening up the battery like this.  Remember that you can check individual cell voltages and total voltage without opening up the battery like this, just using the available connectors.

Good to see that at least the problem is now identified to be our initial suspicion about the battery voltage itself.

I am absolutely new to electrics and my first shock  :banghead:.

Please suggest my current battery(so-called fresh and new [betrayed by battery :']) is 11.1 v, 1800 maH 20C

if I go for a 30C with 2200 mah would that improve the performance? 

I understand by increased Mah (from 1800 to 2200) ..its performance time will increase but How does 20C or 30C is different?

I have Esky charger received with this RTF, so if I purchase a new battery do I need to buy a new Charger too :banghead:???

More "mAH" = more flight time at the expense of more weight. Not sure what this heli will take, need to investigate.  Guess others who have extensive experience with this model will comment.

More "C" = more current to the motor/ESC when needed, which can be roughly translated to more power/higher headspeeds (assuming your motor and ESC can demand/handle the same safely).

Wait for others to comment on suitable battery, or look around on the web for battery recommendations.  Remember that batteries of same mAH from different brands can vary in weight !

I have a belt cpv2 2.4 GHZ & I am using Turnigy 2200 mah batteries without any issues at all  -in fact i have one original Esky battery - 1800 mah & 3 Turnigy 2200 mah batteries - all work great
Regards

It is not a huge difference in mAH between 1800 and 2200, but then these helis are not built to haul a lot of extra weight either. Since you have confirmation from Bill, you can proceed.

Actually buying same from HK. Wot is the possible use of current battery I have?

Same means 1800 Mah and 11.1

Current battery is effectively 8.5V 1800mah with a weight of 11.1 V. Is there any way I can experiement and try to activate the sleeping cell? I have nothing to loose in this battery..

One cell is short circuit in three cells. How to find where the short circuit is? :headscratch:

red and blue wire when checked with mutimeter (show no vots and when checked for resistence show zero)

If I somehow undo the short circuit, is it possible to revive the Lipo?

Just make the cell separator between Cell 1 & Cell2 a little space So that the the terminal got separated (if shorted earlier) with the two body. or give insulated spacers between cells. then charge with +ve to red and negative to blue only from separate charger.

If again, still gets shorted, just de-solder the red and blue wire and the cell-1 from PCB and charge separately. you surely got charged and check the voltage build up.

If still the cell shows short circuit, or the terminal voltage be zero, give shock to the cell by giving appx 40-60 Volt, 5A DC Source to terminal momentarily (just terminal flashing) so that if any micro short-circuit in any foil portion may blow up and the rest cell may take charge. 60% of dead cells got live with this method. But remember, if the cell got larger in shape for internal gassing, just replace the cell.

I Think just de-soldering and re-soldering may do the trick as the excess solder mark seen over PCB. Please keep in mind, the full capacity current you have to allow through the soldered lead also.

In picture, the insulated terminal shown which may short-circuited during soldering.

Thanks

Thank you so much Kalyan for your valuable suggestion. Now Postmortam of the battery is on you can see in in the picture there is no visible short circuit. Will try to resold it but I am not sure even that will solve the problem because, shortcircuit is not visible outside.

Is it possible that the cell is internally dead and hence it shows no resistence on multimeter?

Well,

As per Anwar Sir if warranty available, just claim it. Else you can go yourself.
 
Just measure milivolt between red and blue. If zero, thenmake the multimeter in Contuinity buzzer mode and check in both polarity for at lease a minute. One side, it will continue to buzz and in reverse side it start with buzzer but suddenly it will stops and potential growing starts. Keep in that mode for a few minute and measure the milli/micro voltage developed across the terminal. You nee Polarity only. Check thet it was initially soldered in reverse polarity.
As sen from the picture of you, there is only printing over pack that indicate the polarity and the soldering person makes solder the cell with PCB with correct printing side. (Cell1 reversed, cell-2 & 3 forward soldered). Just reverse the polarity and charge.

If both side starts buzz continuously then follow the procedure.
===============================================
The cell pictures looks clear. Now, just de-solder out the cell from PCB. Keep it in deep fridge (In Plastic wrapped for an hour+-) so that it become cold. Now measure the potential difference of your cell with milli/micro voltmeter (Multimeter in milli/microvoltmeter range).

Case-1
======
If you get a few millivolt reading, it may be survived
Just watch the +ve and -ve terminal and charge with the polarity. Actually, as the printing on the cell printed in wrong polarity, it was soldered in wrong polarity. Just charge with correct polarity and resolder with correct polarity.

Case-2
=====
No Millivolt reading you got but found absolute zero. Chances are less to survive.
Look, here again the polarity may be wrong. Just make reverse charge for a few second and check if any potential build ups or not. If the foil packing of the blue covered area punch makes short circuit, you have to make mechanical surgery to the foil seal. Better, purchase similar one cell (Even if you can buy single cell of less/more capacity as you have balance charger but bottleneck capacity will be lower one) and fix it to the PCB. but you may puncture the foil seal and isolate the two terminal electrical foil connection from one another and repeat same deep fridge procedure. You afterward, seal the mouth cut with just tape

Great Observation  {:)}, thanks. Will do this. Please advice, can I use a normal 12 V adapter to charge this cell i.e. connecting a this cell's positive and negative with charger's positive and negative or I need someting different?

Now I realise that why the balance charger was showing fault in battery when I was initially charging it. But I somehow manage to charge this battery with that balance charger. ( I am sure that was an unbalanced charging)

You are absolutely right, two cells are same position and one cell is soldered in wrong direction and thats the reason of shortcircuit. I wonder this cell is wrongly soldered for a long period is it now possible to recover this dead baby? :headscratch:

So much said about LIPO's dangerous and flamable character.... a cell soldered in wrong direction and I have been chargin it and discharging it... How can a company be so irresponsible in dealing with LiPo soldering?

Yes,
you can use a normal 12 volt adapter to charge.

Actually the excess voltage (PS Voltage - Cell EMF) got wasted in the circuit resistance (Wires, Transformer secondary winding, Cell internal resistance (Though Minimum) and the Diode resistance too as it will operated in higher current rating. Just add a current limiting resister in series.

Let you charge with 1 Amp. Therefore (12-4)=8 Volt drop across resistance.
R = 8 Volt/1Amp = 8 Ohm.
Watt= V*V/R or I * R = 8 watt.
Therefore you can use 8 ohm or higher resistance of wattage (Calculated value for the resistance).

I prefer just add the cell in series with your hot wire cutter if Power Supply is DC.

But don't go in the calculation details. Just give a flash or a few second supply directly from your 12 Volt (Any volt higher than 4 volt) to the dead cell. in both the polarity and check the potential builds up or not Keep in mind that as a dead cell, it has no storage charge that may burst the cell like other cell. So you have no fear.

In any problem contact me directly to my cellphone no. 09231657193.

My drawn picture is given which is right and should be as per PCB. But i am confused about the stamping on LiPO cell itself.

For experience, I have shocked one shorted NiMH cell with 40V,5A PS and got survived. I know the polarity for me which is controversial in your case. So, just charge Blue with Positive and Red with negative and check if voltage building or not.

Hope your success.

Thanks.

Note: Plz, dont call me tonight from 10PM to 8AM as i will be in train from Kolkata to Siliguri and signal may fail.

thank you Kalyan for telephonic guidance and your suggestions. Unfortunatrly the cell was dead. I tried charging it for more than an hour with a 12 volt charger. With right polarity it didnt catch the charge and when I reveresed polarity within 5 minuts my 12 volt charger was very hot and i thought its coil was at the verge of burning.  :giggle:

The cell was dead and didnt survived.  ???

Anyways hav already ordered a new battery. But this experiment was a learning one.

Learning from the above exp:

a) Whenever any RTF is not giving its full performance, before jumping into ESC or other electronics we should first check the battery.
b) Battery if not giving the voltage as per required norm shows that cell might be faulty.
c) If the cell is faulty and you have already performed some cycles of charging and discharging dont expect that faulty to survive (in my case the cell was soldered in wrong direction. i.e. wrong polarity.
d) Dont open the batter as I did, as there may a possible warranty that you may claim. (In my case I dont expect a company based in US will give a new battery). Try and find the fault without opening it.

It is always a good idea to order a spare battery or two(and some spare parts as well) along with your new heli, 'cos anyway you are gonna need 'em.

No matter what charger you have, there would be a ground time of atleast half an hour between charges unless you've more than one battery. Hence keep a couple of batteries at least . That way, you don't have to open up the battery to judge if it's dead (assuming the second battery is good) and claim for warranty.