RC India

Hi Guys,

Got my HK450 MT Metal heli today. The packet has so many stuff and that its really difficult to understand what goes where, Iam really confused as to where to start building.  Wish Anwar/Rotorzone was here now with me ;D No manual either. ;) But at this price cant complain right? {:)}

FIRST IMPRESSIONS: Its really big for a person who would not have seen a 450 size Heli before, unlike it looks on the site. See the attached pics, in front of my SE K550i

Well for the eager ones: The heli reached my home directly w/o customs hassle. I ordered a 1.5 kilo packet with this heli and spares, like blades paddle set etc etc, in case of crash. I declared 70% Gift and ended up paying 800 Rs customs(20% of the declaration.). Calculate the rest from there. :thumbsup: Of course the electronics came in a different parcel. Please don't PM me for any details, just ask it on this thread and I will answer whenever I visit here.

I have the align manual and 4 gb of construction video ready with me. I still don't know what is pitch and throttle curve and how to do it on my RDS8K ;D But I sure know how to fly a CCPM Heli. :D

I will start building the Heli today itself after coming back from SPRoad(some electronics shopping  :giggle:).

Thanks Anwar bhai for pointing me to the align parts and screw driver set that I badly needed. They reached me within 8 days from Heli direct, w/o customs hassle and 0 customs for a 80USD parcel. Of course w/o asking Heli direct declared it as 49 USD.

I even have the tail gear set from Heli direct in case the original fails. But HK claims it has been fixed.

Buils parts:

Turnigy Typhoon 2215H 4000KV (Most efficient on the whole earth.)
HXT 900 cyclic for now (MG14 metal servos on the way)
DS480 tail servo
TowerPro 40H for now (Turnigy Plush 40 amps on the way)
11 T pinion.
Battery? Which else? The most famous Flightmax 2200 3S1P 20C(I have 3 nos, that I had got earlier)
HobbyKing 401B gyro (Got 1 for plane and 1 for heli)
Landing gear practicing kit, 1 from HeliDirect(This is really good. Thick CF rods) and 1 from Deal extreme(75% quality of HeliDirect ones).
Reciever: Airtronics 8 Channel FHSS.

Anything else I need?

Now enjoy the photos.

I again  :salute: :salute: :salute: THANK THE CUSTOMS WHOLE HEARTEDLY {:)} {:)} {:)} for allowing Indians to have all the JOY that Other Leading Countries are having.

Awesome ! Thanks to Anwar/Rajesh, looks like a lot of people are getting into Helis.
Wish you all the best !

All the best  :thumbsup: 

Would love to see how the MT version performs. 

Looks like you did not list your charger.  Since you have 3s batteries, you should have one already :)

BTW which screw driver set did you go in for ? I might need one, as the ones i have are too big for the heli screws.

http://www.rcindia.org/tools-materials-and-building-techniques/hex-driver-set/

My trusted ones are the Align ones, but there are other good ones too.  Even the handle shape design on these Align ones are very helpful in terms of both the size and the grip/torque inside your hands.

Thanks Gaurav! I got the Align(Individual handle 4 pack) version as suggested by anwar above. I havent opened the packet yet. But anwar says they are cool. So no worries there.

@Anwar.
I got the following charger. The charger is good but the built in SMPS is bad. Review to come soon once I try the PC connectivity. It also comes with an thermometer.
http://www.nitroplanes.com/thac6smbalic.html

I called up Mr. Adarsh today. (Details about him can be found here http://www.adarsh007.com/index.html ) He says, our Jakkur license is acknowledged. So that we can start Flying. {:)} {:)} {:)} Its great news for myself and Ujjwal. Iam going to Jakkur tomorrow to meet the other Heros. (:|~

VERY IMPORTANT FOR HELI BUILDERS: As suggested by Adarsh the Loctite 222 is better than Anabond blue. It is Low strenght Thread locker for smaller screws. The MRP for 50 ml is 416, But I got it for a street price of 350 bucks. This will last longer than the 2 years expiry date ;D

Adarsh is a member here... you can contact him via PM.

http://www.rcindia.org/rc-people/adarsh-from-bangalore/

This is called "THE STATE OF ART CONFUSION  :violent:" :giggle:

That's not too bad :)

Looks like the head and tail comes assembled. Saves some effort, but better check if they have used loctite on the screws.

Agreed ;). Most of the things comes assembled. In fact if you build one, building the second one would take only an hour for assembling(If you try record time) and another 1/2 hour to fit the electronics/soldering, and another hour to fine tune and trim(no experience here). But lack of manual and the align manual explaining only half(as align comes assembled much more.) causes more pain. Dont know which screw goes where. I am seeing photos and guessing from the internet/other build threads from RCGroups.

I saw red loctite on the tail rotor. But not else where on the whole kit. So it does not come with loctite on other places. Do i have to remove all the screws and put loctite and asseble back? That would be pain.  :banghead:

Also how tight should I keep the tail belt?

All standard kits comes with packages according to each step of the build. If this is not true in your case, it could be a nightmare figuring out which screw goes where. There are tons of sites on trex 450, that should help.

All screws that go into metal should have loctite. The head parts should definitely be secured with loctite.

Hold the heli and swing the tail hard. Tighten the belt until it no longer slaps inside the boom. That should be a good starting point.

You are right. I went through the align manual and all screws metal needs loctite. I now pretty much figured out what scwres go where. Its time to read some theory abt pitch throttle curve and how to program the same on the radio(RDS8K) :violent:

Iam also downloading some videos on HK 450 Tutorials. But should be of less use to me now as I have already assembled the frame. Just need to remove each screw and tighten with loctite. Ya its really a pain as there is no manual.

Also time to hold the soldering iron  ;D for the motor and ESC bullets and some XT60 connectors. I have standardised all connections with XT60. And above 65 AMPS with 4mm bullets.

HK 450 Build GUIDE


http://video.google.com/videosearch?rlz=1C1GGLS_enIN291IN305&sourceid=chrome&q=HK+450+Build+guide&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=M2xcS_65MZLg7APKpbymCQ&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCAQqwQwAw#

http://rwmaa.org/index.php?option=com_jdownloads&Itemid=55&task=viewcategory&catid=90/

What I have been following the rule of thumb below (based on consulting various resources).

Basically, once the belt is in place (and the two sides are parallel to each other), you should be able to push one side of the belt slightly more than half the distance towards the other side. 

To clarify, all metal screws which go into metal need loctite. 

I have got this advice too when I was a beginner. Problems is knowing how much force should it take to move the belt so far. You develop a feel for it later, but as a beginner it didn't help me.

True  :giggle:

I guess it is "without trying too much" !

Well, Looks like the complicated parts are already built out for you - Rotor head,Tail assy !! Wait till you need to repair something here :)) Good to see the build moving. Post us some more pictures.

I bunked the office to build the Heli. Came home now after some bike service. Will soon post as I progress. As of now the soldering part of the electronics is complete. Plan to finish the build by today and maiden it tomorrow. Its REPUBLIC DAY. HURRAY! Well does it mean anything to us now a days other than its holiday?

By the way, I now know how to build. But need to learn to Program the radio.

Progress Update.

Pics:
1)Even though I had some new Servos that I had earlier used for testing some stuff, I still bothered to open up the brand new ones which I had stored in the different stocks box. (:|~

2)Servos installed and I tested and centered them using the servo tester. Really a handy piece of equipment.

3)Motor Installed and all the screws tightened with Loctite Purple. Used Anabond blue on motor and pinion screws.

4)Skid Fitted. Yup, You noticed in right. I have fixed the skid in opposite directions to get more balance.

The motor and the tail belt are all fitted perfectly. test ran the motor at 5% throttle and everthing is free and smooth and Proper, tested even by hand.

Pending work:
1)Learn Programming RDS and understand pitch and throttle curve.

2)Put some balls ;D on the servo arms.

3)Level swash plate.

4)Install flybar and pads

5)Install Main blades.

6)Install the CF rods on the Boom.(Dont know what they are called or why its required.)

Some questions:

1)Should I allow the some play to be present in the tail blades and Main blades. As of now the tail blades are tightly held and cant move them freely by hand.
OR should I keep them loose and they will align properly when when the rotor rotates?

2)Should I use the fly bar weights to balance the fly bar or they should be at the end?

3)The screws on the Main rotor assemble are pretty pretty tight! Do I need to remove them and apply Loctite again?

Thanks,
Vinay.

They are boom supports, which help reduce tail vibrations.


1. Main blades should be fairly tight, yet movable by hand with some force.  Tail blades should be pretty loose, almost free falling.  They will line up when they start rotating.  Keeping the main blades tight helps with autorotations (not a real factor on this size of helis), and loose tail blades help save the belt if the tail hits grass or the ground (as the impact is absorbed by the blades bending).

2. It helps with better stability while hovering, and is a good thing for beginners.  As you progress into aggressive flying, people tend to take them off.  Yes, they should be balanced (usually, keeping them equidistant would put them pretty much in balance).

3. Main blades are a risky proposition. I usually took them out, applied from grease to the rudder dampners, used loctite on the feathering shaft and put it together, just for the peace of mind.  If you are proceeding with this, note that there are many small parts there, and you have to put them back in the right order.  Finally, remember that grease and loctite are NOT very good friends, so do not let the grease get into places where loctite needs to do its job ;)

Anwar, My question was wrong. I was speaking about the ball link assembly, and not inside the rotor head. The screws on the ball links assemble are tight. So should I apply loctite there again? If i remove the Ball link asssemble, It will be a pain. :violent: even If I do it 1 at a time.

For the ball links that go into plastic (if any, should be none or minimal in the case of MT version), leave them alone if they are tight enough. 

For the ones that go into metal, it would make sense to remove them, and add them back with the removable loctite (blue).  As long as the loctite is the removable type, there should be no issue removing them.  Some people even put permanent/red loctite on the ones that go into the swash-plate as you should never need to remove them, but the removable/blue one will do the job just fine.

Update:

Slept at 4.30 and got up at 8.  ;D Need to finish this guy today and if possible maiden it. I have decided to remove the assy and put the Swash plate leveller there and level it.

I learnt how to program RDS in pitch and throttle curve, went through the Heli part of the manual thrice. very easy but misses the very basic feature of EPA on the Cyclics :-[ :-[ :banghead:. So I am doing horrible things to level the swash plate. Its Important that I do not crash. I also need to make sure I get some place left on the Trims.

Finished loading balls on the servo arms and mounted them. Not screwed the servo arms yet. Fixed the tail fan loose with blue loctite.

Pending work:

1)Level swash plate.

2)Install flybar and pads

3)Install Main blades.

4)Install the CF rods on the Boom.(Dont know what they are called or why its required.)

5)Install the training kit ;D (Heli Direct ones).

Anwar,

The whole Ball Link assembly is 100% metal. If the screws are tite ill leave it as it is or loctite it with blue loctite. Will post pics soon, Once the swash plate leveling is complete.

Drawbacks of RDS here:
http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t414575p2/

Better to put blue loctite yourself, just to be sure.  Be sure to clean the screws before putting them back with loctite.

Anwar, I have a problem. All these days I have flown the Highly responsive 3D models on the sim. Which usually have a pitch curve of something like

Pitch = 0 25 50 75 100
Throttle = 100 90 100(From align manual. No personal experience here.)

Now If I have to Configure the Heli with Curves for the beginners hover like the below, Iam scared I will crash.:

Pitch = 45(Negative by -1 degree) 60 75  90 100
Throttle = 0 25 50 75 100

Because for me, pulling the stick down means PUSHING ;D the Heli Down.

Also if I want to set the Heli in 3D mode like throttle 100 90 100, what is the head speed I need to configure? 2650 at 100 % for a beginner?

I wont be doing an inverted flights or anything. Just hovering only. But I want the pitch stick to behave like the 3D models as I am used to It.

Also to see the Helis stability and initial maiden flight should I use the 0 25 50 75 100 Throttle curve? with a appropriate pitch curve as I mentioned above?

There are two schools of thought on this.

1) Separate pitch curve for normal flight and 3D flight (-4, +4, +9 low-mid-high for normal and -10,0,+10 for 3D for these types of helis).

2) Same curve for both normal and 3D flight (-10,0,+10).

I started with [1], but experience has taught me to change to [2].  Instead of adjusting pitch curve for normal, adjust your throttle curve so that you can have stable hover at around 60% (or 65%) stick position.  But this also means that you should be careful when you come down to land.  

This gets a bit more interesting when you add the "throttle hold curve" into the mix. Having a single curve for normal, sport, 3D and hold modes avoids issues like the heli jumping or dropping suddenly when you change modes. Also when you start practicing autorotations (on bigger helis), you will be familiar territory as far as pitch is concerned.

ok, I will try to understand what you told later ;)

For now, I have removed the ball link assemble and the total head from the main shaft to put the Swash plate leveler in there. Nice little tool really a must have for 9 USD.

Since RDS does not allow me to program EPA on the cyclics, I need to do all the adjustments manually by loosening/tightening the ball links a little/ and trim a little.
I will try to level the swash plate as much as possible safely manually, then use the sub trims to trim them. No other options for me on the RDS :'(

But when it comes to flying many people prefer RDS for the crisp controls over the DX7. :argue:

I don't use EPA for normal setup of helis.  All you need to get as close as possible to zero pitch (that also means the various head pieces are as level as possible) *at mid-stick*, with a 0-50-100 pitch curve.  If the mechanical setup alone does not allow you to get there, use sub-trim (as little as possible). 

If the RDS does not support reversing of an entire control (aileron/elevator/pitch), that would cause some extra work.

EPA is used for removing aileron-pitch and elevator-pitch interactions, which is not a real concern (until you start doing tic-tocs in one place etc).

Regarding throttle curve for normal, assuming you leave the pitch at full range (-10,0,+10) or so, you will need something like 0, 35, 50, 65, 100.  The idea is to have enough RPM for hovering around 60% (or 65%) throttle, and have enough rpm around the 30% to 40% position to land without bleeding off too much.

Beware anabond blue users, use as little as possible even in high vibration areas.!!!! A Small amount of anabond got on the shaft and the whole ball link assemble got jammed. Phew. I had to put the shaft on the whise and hammer it with a cutting and a nose plier carefully.

Learning a lot of lessons :violent:. Its testing my patience to the maAAAAAAAAAAAXXXXXXXXXXXXXXxIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMUUUMMM. I am not giving up. :D

I need to finish it today at any cost.

Take it easy. You tend to make mistakes when you try to hurry things up.

Gaurav, Iam in fact assembling it carefully and slowly. But there are some mistakes no matter how carefull you are, you learn only after committing those mistakes  ;D

I wanna finish this at any cost. Too bad I cant maiden it till saturday. :(

Swash plate leveling at low medium and high pitch. Pitch curve = -15 50 125% Radio used RDS8000

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu4fM_vWL0E

Test after 80% assembly without main rotor.

Pitch curve =   -15 50 125%
Throttle curve = 18 8 18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtzwCjb21Mg

Pending work:
1)Install main rotor blades and adjust pitch.

2)Maiden it.  ;)

Some more Pics:

:o  :o  :headscratch:

That means your motor will always be running, as you are never at zero throttle !  Or did I miss something obvious ?

Plus, it looks like you may have built the head wrong, just can't say for sure from the pictures posted so far.  Can you post some close-up shots of the head ?

You should also route your servo wires away from the sharp edges of the frame, if possible (cable-ties help!).

Vinay are you trying to level the swash plate using the RDS8000, then the below link will help you do it.

http://www.helifreak.com/showpost.php?p=766655&postcount=5

Hope this helps.

Anwar, The throttle curve of 18 8 18 was used inside the house to test the Heli, If I had used Higher and the Gyros gain was higher then the tail would have started moving, Its just an experimental value. I have not yet decided on the final values.

Well just wondering, For all the 3D Helis, the motor will always be on right, atleast for 3d flying?

I will post some close up pics once I get some time.

 Also I have used zip ties in 3 places apart from tying the ESC, I have trimmed them so you are not able to see them, and 2 are on the other side. None of the metal frame edges are sharp, they are very smooth finish, and as it lools in the photo, the wire are comfortably sitting, not loose or not very tight. Just a proper fit. :thumbsup:, I spent 2.5 Hrs to finish the wiring mess. >:D

Karthik, Thanks for the link, thats what I have been looking for, the manual is a useless piece of crap. I have leveled out the swash plate already physically itself as much as possible and using the Servo centering option. Let me go through the site and see what else the radios allows me to do. :headscratch:

Some questions:

1)I have fixed the flybar paddles in such a way that, they are perfectly parallel, when I tested it at 25 % throttle and no input from the sticks its not blowing any air, up or down? Is this the right way to do? Or should they have some angle of attack?

2)Any tips/links on what all I need to take care before maidening, like how much gain/delay on the gyro, head speed to tail speed ratios etc?

3) How to check CG?

Thanks.

I understand that these are not final values.  But a throttle curve for normal flying should always have "0" as the value for the low stick position.  Only for 3D flight would you go for a non-zero value for the low stick position (and yes, the motor will always be on), but even then you will need to switch back to a non-3D mode for landing and shutdown (where the low stick position value is again zero). 

Overall, just wanted to stress that a "V" shaped throttle curve is only for 3D / sport flying, otherwise you could get hurt. It would have made more sense if the values were "0 8 18" :)

If you are confident about the shard edges not cutting into the wire insulation, then we are fine  :thumbsup:

We do usually route some of the wires from the servos on the front side of the heli to the back "inside" the frame though.  There are usually small slits for the cable-ties to go through in the main shaft area of the frame.  This also makes the heli look neater with less wires exposed.



1. Just make the paddles parallel to the "flybar cage". (http://video.helifreak.com/?subpath=/finless/trex450pro&filename=headp2.wmv , you may need to register).

2. Gain is something you set by experimentation, start with around 40. The important thing is to slowly spool up, and see if the heli goes into a spin, in which case, you have to reverse the small dip switch thingy on the gyro.  Delay should not matter in this case, as you seem to be using a fast enough digital servo.  There is no headspeed to tailspeed ratio you can manually adjust. It is a belt-connected drive, which means that part is decided for you already. Just spool up slowly, and see if the tail is responding to the right inputs.

3. I usually check it by hanging the heli on the main blades (around the middle part).  CG is usually not a big issues on these helis.

Got your point anwar, I will ask a 100 questions when it comes to programming later, And I will not maiden it unless i get a green signal from you guys that 'all iiz well' after complete setup. :thumbsup:

Some pics you asked for, The head is rotating w/o problems and with different inputs from the TX and that is how it arrived from HK, Something wrong you noticed :headscratch:? Please look at the photos, that you asked for.

I think its time for you to buy additional disk space on the server :giggle:

Anwar, I am sorry, I meant to ask Head speed to tail Pitch ratio, Once I am ready to fly the heli, to counter act the head speed rotation, there should be an initial pitch on the tail right? Or should I just leave that to the gyro. I may be wrong here.

Also the gyro goes to Headlock mode only on gain above 50. Other wise its a rate gyro. Also I can set the gain through the RDS8000 remotely.

Headlock mode is more "forgiving" to improper setup.  One quick way to setup the tail is to put it in rate mode (non head-lock), make sure the slider is around middle, then put it back in heading-hold mode, and go fly. 

The right/perfect way to do it is to place it around centre in rate mode, and fly it in rate mode itself and compensate for any drift by mechanically adjusting the tail control linkage length.  To be absolutely perfect, you have to put it in 3D mode (after the above mechanical correction in rate mode), take the heli up high (all in rate mode), bring it down fast using lots of negative collective, and stop it quickly with a quick pump of high collective pitch. If the tail still holds (ie, does not swing in any direction), then you are good to go in terms of mechanical setup.  After this, go back to heading hold mode, and fly like that until you need to rebuild any part of the tail.

Seems fine :thumbsup:  Just looked weird in one of the earlier pictures.

Reminds me, I'm yet to do this on my Atom. Have been putting off doing this during the initial flights and then forgot since I fly only on HH mode.


What does this indicate about the mechanical setup ? Thought this test was for gain/delay.

It ensures perfectness of the whole setup (the last turn that is possibly required even after trimming in rate mode using plain hovering, and delay). 

Gain itself is another matter in my experience, where a tail-out inverted 3D flight seems to be the best criteria/test.  Increase the gain until the tail wags (frequent wags where movement to each side is small) in tail-out inverted flight, then dial down the gain until it subsides.  Nothing tests gyro performance like tail-out inverted flight (like when you are doing a "hurricane" pattern maneuver).

Ok will see if it shows up during my trimming. I doubt I'll encounter this situation as the gyro holds nicely through all maneuvers already. The Align GP750 is working far better than a Futaba GY401.

And I have been waiting for a video of yours forever ;)


Yep, it is a good gyro. Holds very well on the Trex 500.

I still  haven't taken any videos. For now, here is a pic from the maiden.

hey vinay this is the video of 250 HK build by nuttcaze. Probably it might give some more additional info needed for the build

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiV-BW2ttuI&feature=sdig&et=1264607903.73

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5vuaGRbN58&feature=related

Thanks, I will look into it once Iam back from office, I think I cannot continue my build till Saturday due to office work. :(

I am back with lot of doubts  >:D

1)FIRST

I have decided to goto the 2nd school as I am very much used to flying 3D Helis on the sim. (-10 0 +10) This is done.

2)SECOND

The heli comes with glass fiber blades and not carbon fibre blades. So can you please tell me the throttle curve in terms of RPM for a 450 size TREX? The motor is a 4000 kv and at 100% throttle and 11T pinion, it will take the head beyond 3000 RPM.  I guess its not a good idea taking the RPM above 2900 RPM for GF blades. I have done some fill up the blanks myself. ;)

I need it for 2 modes. The hovering and 3d mode.

Mode 1)Hovering mode:
a)Pitch curve (-10 0 +10) in terms of degrees
b)Throttle curve(?? ?? 2900)in terms of RPM

Mode 2)HardCode 3d mode: I wont be using this but i want to see how this flies. So I will give it to experianced fliers at jakkur to test this mode.
a)Pitch curve (-10 0 +10) in terms of degrees
b)Throttle curve(2900 ?? 2900)in terms of RPM

Mode 3) Spare. Don't know If I will use this or need this.

Mode Hold)Hold Mode:
a)Pitch curve (-10 0 +10) in terms of degrees
b)Throttle curve(0 0 0)in terms of RPM

3)THIRD:
Any expo settings you guys recommend?

Thanks,
Vinay.

Thanks this is what I was looking for. Its what I needed to use before. But I was unaware of it and I did it manually. There is still a lot of stuff pending on the Heli Head.

Even with a leveled swashplate, the pitch on 1 blade is different by 3.5 degrees compared to another. Found this out using a pitch guage. Now to fix this  :banghead:

That means your linkages are not setup properly.  Typically, except for the links that connect the servos to the swash (which will be different in length), all other links should be equal in size with their symmetrical pair ones.

Rework the linkages *above* the swash plate.

I am working on it. so when you say equal/symmetrical, how symmetrical should they be? will 1/2 mm to 1mm tolerance be ok? :headscratch:

As close as you can get them, is all I can say. With the Align original ones, I usually get them to be pretty much exact. If they are 1mm off, I feel that one more turn will get them closer.

Anwar, the heli has a perfectly tuned head now. It cannot get any better ;). the max diff in the lenght of the connectors is .32mm on 1 of them. I cannot change that further. Iam confident that it will fly well. Pitch is set at -10 0 +10.

I tested it in the hall keeping the pitch at 50(0 pitch, stick center) and slowly increased the head speed by increasing the throttle curve at p3(stick center.) Absoulutely no vibrations. :thumbsup:

But I noted 2 things.

1)In rate mode - As I decresed/incresed pitch slowly, the tail started dragging left, so I should increase the gain right?
EDIT: The tail started dragging right tail-in.

2)In head lock mode - No matter what I do, The tail servo is not getting centered. It is settling at 20% rather than at 50%(center), This happens even when the motor was off. If i move the heli by hand in the head lock mode the tail blades deflect but slowly goes to that weird 20% position instead of staying at the same deflected pitch. How to fix this guy?

Its a HK401B gyro the futaba 401 clone and I have read 1000s of reviews that it is 85 % as good as the futaba, and futaba owners have started using these.

If you have around 50% gain in rate mode, and the tail is still drifting, then you have to counter it by mechanically adjusting the linkage length, or by moving the tail servo slight up or down on the boom; assuming you want a solid setup overall.  Or you can ignore this and fly in head-lock mode.

If I understood this correctly, what you are seeing is the proper/default behavior in head-lock mode. It will not center (unless you apply full inputs to either side quickly a few times and then let go of the rudder stick).  This is part of what distinguishes both the modes.  Try flying it with around 35% gain in head-lock mode, and we will take it from there.

Why adjust the link and why cant I subtrim it?

You would never want to put either trim or subtrim on rudder for a HH gyro. The short explanation is that the gyro learns the center every time it boots up, so it will think that the last trim you added as the center now, and will demand that much trim again.

Google it, and you can read the details.  One I found quickly is http://www.raptortechnique.com/gyroconfusion.htm and see the question "Can I use rudder trim".

It is always better to fix things mechanically in rate mode, then just flip to heading-hold and just play with the gain till you are satisfied. And the rule for gain is "as high as you can go, without causing the tail to wag".  And "wag" is quick wagging (like "shivering", not "slow drifting").

Some people do use sub-trim (not trim) to get the servo arm to be at 90degrees, but even they have to do the mechanical setup correctly.  They use it only to put the servo-arm at the right angle, NOT to counter tail drifts.

Thanks anwar bhai, that clears all my doubts. The heli is all complete with tail boom support fixed as well. Ready to be transported. Only problem left is to create a box for it using foam and strong coro like the align aluminium box like the link below. Got the foam in the evening. Time to build it up. Probably i will do it tom morning.

http://www.helidirect.com/trex-aluminum-carrying-case-p-1722.hdx

One last question though. The main Rotor blade holding screw has a locknut (nylock nut, which has a nylon washer at the end), Do I need to add Loctite here as well? Will loctite react with nylon washer present at the end of the nut?

No thread lock is needed where nylock nuts are used.

Looking forward to your maiden report  :thumbsup:   

And seeing Gaurav's flight, I am tempted to ask...  are you going to use training skids too ?

I will, I have 2 pairs. But Rajesh dosent need to. I hope he comes tomorrow. Or I will have to hunt for a mode 2 Heli guru. ;D

Now i a jealous of you :)) You have someone like Rajesh besides you to help you during your maiden. !!

Well guys, some good news and some bad news. First thing, I finished working on my heli carrying case by 10 in the morning(Worked overnight w/o sleep) and by the time I got ready it was 11 30 and it was not possible to goto jakkur. SO I took my cousin and uncle to some Outside the city BDA site  and started the maiden there. It was good and drifting back words and right side and some small trims fixed them. The tail was not holding well so I switched the Gyro to HH mode and no problems at all.

Let me tell you HK450 is really a good good heli. I havent flown any in real world but Iam comparing them to the ones in the G4.5 sim. I rate it as A+.

Afte hovering for 15 mins(second battery) I came down fast and the training skid broke and the heli crashed. I have all the spare to repair the Heli except the spur gear.  :thumbsdown:

Broken parts:
1)Training skid ceneter holder broken. I need to find an alternate to plastics at the center.
2)1 X HXT900 gear.
3)Main spur gears shredded.
4)Tail boom bended(dont know hot to straighten the inward curve part.)

Iam too tired and happy that I flew the heli successfully. {:)}

I have my every heli move captured on the video including the scary crash. Will upload tomorrow.

I think, I will upgrade all the servos with the metal ones. Too lazy to change the shredded gears. :argue: Good night guys.

Well, congrats on the maiden  {:)}

Curious if you crashed because the lipo ran out of charge, or you brought it down too fast inadvertently.  15 minutes on a single lipo is a lot of time, for the 2200mah lipos are that usually used on such helis.

Also, not sure which gear you are referring to as main "spur" gears.  The "main gears" ?

Thanks anwar, w/o the help from forum, it wouldnt have been possible.

Well The first battery lasted for 8 mins and the second one 7 mins, totalling 15 mins before crash. ;D

Well its the main gear(150 T) The motor actually bruised the main gears pretty badly and is unusable. I just ordered some more spares including the main gear. Should reach me by 16 days.

Well the crash happned I came down a little fast and the central lock of the training gear that holds all the CF rods together broke and BHOOM, in seconds it was in pieces.

And frankly, I am not disappoited by the crash at all ;). But it really thought me to practice more on the sim  :giggle:.

Also forgot to mention, One of the GF blade was broken into pieces. But the other one survived with a small 1.5X1.5 mm paint chipped off, which I can tape it balance it on a blade balancer with some other similar blade and use it. ;D

Congrats Vinay.
Crashes and waiting for parts is inevitable with Helis :) I guess waiting for parts is actually a boon, as you get to spend some time with the SIM. I guess thats what made me hover better. Had i got the parts immediately i would have been breaking/rebuilding continuously !

You are absolutely right gaurav, that gives us more time on the sim. I had almost 2 sets of most of the spares. Its just because of the main gear, I have to wait. Ill start building a plane by then ;D. and practice heli on the sim. I am also planning to upgrade all the cyclics to MG14 metal gear servos. They should be reaching me this week, most probably today.

Yeah, even i upgraded to Hitec 65-MG . I guess its like an investment, but saves time fiddling with servos and replacing gears

Hi Vinay congratulation on your maiden flight. Btw I too crashed mine last week after 5th battery. Waiting on spares to arrive. Bent the feathering shaft, bent tail boom, bent flybar. One broken blade.

Cause of the crash : Pilot error. Wrong input. Was trying to land in 9'0 clock position, lost orientation.

If anybody is considering such a heli, this is a much better design.

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10902

Some of the advantages :

1) Single piece frame on each side, which means it is easier to build and maintain.  The two piece frame was one part of the original Trex 450 design that I absolutely hated ;)

2) Lower parts count.

3) Easier mounting of servos.

4) "Chinese weighted" tails, for better tail stability/performance.

5) The issue with the canopy holder causing the frame to break is largely resolved, as the canopy holder is now attached directly to the metal main shaft bearing block.  This was a major pain, as it would cause only that one small part of the CF frame to break during crashes, but the rest of the frame was fine.

There is also a torque tube version (http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10901), but the belt one is better as it is much more forgiving to crashes an even tail rotors hitting mud/grass.  The torque tube version is slightly better 3D performance.

Thanks Anwar,
I might be going in for one of those at some time !
HK prices do attract !

I saw it on the day it came out, it was still in stock and I wanted to order one, but way too expensive on crashes :(. So I have ordered another 28 USD wala. Dont want to spend much on the PRO till I get a little confidence. Also the spares would be expensive. Me back to sim till I get spares ;). Will post videos of maiden/Crashes tomorrow.

Here are the videos:

1)First take off, as I said earlier, the gyro had problems getting into HH mode and the heli was drifting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06G-l2adyBE

2)Flying in HH mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXhxWcUBMuE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzQ7k_YoMro


3)Godforsaken thing happens. Its my fault that I came down fast and I trusted the HeliDirect training gear, which breaks and the Heli goes Kaput.  >:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjs9fxb_pes

Well there are many other videos which are taken before the crash, But I chose the good ones. ;D

Hope its not bad for a guy who is flying an RC toy for the first time ;)

And I thank everyone over this forum who made this possible.

Hey great flying vinay  {:)}. I can see how seriouslly you have taken this hobby.  :salute:

I happened to visit Vinay house yesterday. And I felt as though I was in a hobby shop than house :giggle:.  I will not be surprised if Vinay sets up a hobby shop  ;D

Thats what happens if you give a credit card to a monkey's hand. ;D

Lol. Several years back, i read somewhere that if you want to know someone is a true aeromodeller, you would find something related to RC in everyplace in the house.

Vinay, great you posted the vids. I will see them a bit later when i get a good net connection.

Vinay,
I wanted ask something.
I wanted to order a HK heli as well, and was debating between the 450MT and 450GT.
Now though GT is a newer more expensive version, there are no parts yet for it.
I wanted to ask you , if all part for thr 450MT are on site ?
When i browse for 450 heli parts i do not clearly see which ones are for T and which ones for the cheaper HK-450 version. But since you have the heli you can see and confirm if all parts for the MT are up on site.

Let me know please.
Thanks !

The difference between the cheap/plain 450 and the MT is that a bunch of parts are metal in the MT version.  So those parts are very unlikely to break in the event of a crash.  The rest of the parts are similar between the two. 

Now even if you broke one of the metal parts, and HC does not carry it, you can get a compatible part from CopterX (http://www.ehirobo.com), Align (various sources) and others.  So parts are never issue for these, and that is a significant advantage with one of these Align clones.

There are significant advantages with the GT version though (which is a clone of the Align "Pro" version). Unless you break the frame or the landing skid, most other parts are compatible with the other versions. 

Amazing how fast the 450GT is selling out. In the evening they had around 376 of them and its not 358 ! I guess i will go with the 450GT with belt...
Will order in a couple of days or if i see the stock going below 100.
Then, you can expect to see another build thread.
Reason, i am going to get this is, that I am not ready for the Raptor 50 yet, unless i am very confident with flying, and having another electric heli in my hangar will be like a backup, and help me with continuing flying while i wait for parts on the other...

Exactly the same idea here, But I am not ordering the GT but already ordered the cheap 27$ wala, reason being, I dont want to get hurt If the Heli Crashes. >:D

Another reason is that I dont want to be tooo very carefull while flying, and flying a cheap heli will give me that confidence to fly confidently, costlier the Heli, more my hands will shiver ;D

Once I am confident that I can Hover up side down, then is the time for the pro for me. :D

Heli Gurus, Please help,

Practicing on the G4.5, I am getting used to fly only 3D helis, i.e, -10 0 +10 pitch. with V shaped Throttle curves. Initially these were though to fly, but now I am used to these with occasional crashes.

What I am really worried is that, If i try to select a Heli with -2 0 +10 Pitch curves with 0 50 100 Throttle curve, I am not able to fly them at all, I just keep crashing. My fingers' muscle memory have already adjusted to such a way that without the 3D Helis Curves, I cant fly easily at all. But in 3D mode I can fly easily.

So what do I do?
1 Continue practicing on these 3D curves itself?
Or
2 Come back to normal hovering curves, get used to it and again go back to 3D curves and get used to it (double work)?

Here is a video of me flying in 3D mode. You have to watch it with monitor brightness increased and in full screen to be able to see something. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM3mFbxQhAg

Thanks,
Vinay.

Let us say you learn to drive cars.  And you practiced on a car that belongs to the driving school.  You are comfortable in it, you can handle it easily and with grace.  Now you got your license, and have got a car of your own, which is fairly different when it comes on handling.  What do you do ?  You get in, start driving around with a bit of struggle, and after the first few kilometers, you are just as comfortable in it as the driving school car.

Then one day, your friend, who has a Mahindra jeep (open one, with no canopy, to show off to the "members of opposition" ;) ), asks you to drive it on a trip. It has a completely different way of where the reverse gear is, where the first gear stick position is and so on. The steering is a pain to turn compared to the powered ones on your car.  Again, what do you do ? You drive around with some struggle for a few kilometers, and then it is natural to you.

Morale of the story.... your mind should be clear that they are all the same, and you have basic knowledge and skills to handle them regardless of their differences.

I have to repeat this story time and again to beginners who complain that the real heli/plane does not feel anything like what they are in the sim :)  And I was in the same boat a while ago ;)

You just need to "learn to adapt", that skill is what makes all the difference.  Obviously, like in the car example, you start of slow on any new piece of equipment, so that you can get a "feel" for the differences.

Agree. Its all about training the brain. All that is needed is some patience.
Learning a piano ( or any instrument is similar ) . You learn one, then the second one is though looks tough initially becomes very easy after a while.
Vinay, i am not the the level to try idle-ups yet, but someday i will definitely catch up !

Vinay, for that plastic 450 what spares did you order ? Are they on HK website ? I saw through the list, but not sure if the part listing there is for Version 1 or 2 ..

AFAIK all the spares remain same except the inside-head items like feathering shaft, washers etc. So I have all the spares I can use that I had ordered for the MT version. I will order the feathering shaft + (whatever remaining for V2 extra) in the next shipment. You can also order 4mm feathering shaft from EBAY etc.

The difference between V1 and V2 are sort of minimal (I listed them else where). 

In Align land, there was a Trex 450"S" first. It had shorter tail booms as compared to the "SE" (both v1 and v2) versions.  So one thing we used to run into earlier on was that by mistake we would order the tail boom or belts for the V1 and V2, but ordered the "S" version ones (smaller).  The "S" version is pretty much dead now, and all the clone ones are pretty much the "SE" models (V1, V2, V3 and Pro). 

WE want to know the diff b/w the HK models not align >:D ;) ;D

HK follows Align !

 :) Yeah, BTW does the V1 use a 4mm shaft and V2 a 5mm one ? Some forums say one side, and the others say opposite.

The other spares like the tail boom, main shaft, gear, control levers etc would be the same in your opinion ? As i said I needed to order this for someone, and would also order spares, but not sure if the V2 ones are there on site, or if i am supposed to order just what is there under the HK 450 part list ( except metal ones )

I know that, but dont know what else is inside a head apart from the feathering shaft. :headscratch:

BTW gaurav, did you level the swash plate after a crash and properly set the pitch of the blade. I noted that for my heli after the crash I had to make some changes to the ball link lenght to make sure that the Pitch on both the blades were 0 degress at the same time when the stick was at the center(of course I trimmed the cyclic pitch to get 0 degrees at the center stick) But what Iam saying is when 1 blade is at 0 degree other one also should be at pakka 0 degree.

Yes I did check the levelling. No modification to lengths was needed.

One thing in respect to blade tracking, when in a hover i see 2 discs, the flybar one is clear. but the main blade one is fuzzy. Its just one disc, but appears as a thicker disc compared to the flybar. Does this indicate that the blades are out of track ?

Anyways, the V2 feathering shaft has the larger dia.

Feathering shaft, rubber O-rings (dampers), and grease :) 

Then inside the main blade grip themselves, the V1 has just some washers and a nut that goes into the feathering shaft, in V2 there are thrust bearings too.

Unless you see TWO DISTINCT discs, you are fine in terms of "blade tracking".

I am still confused how tight to keep the tail belt. If I hold the main rotor head constant and turn the tail rotor, then the the belt slips after applying little force. would this be ok? :headscratch:

Hmm I read through a lot of forums/articles about this.
From what i understood, you should be able to pinch the two sides of the belt and get them to touch in the middle.
If you cannot ( or need too much force) then loosen up a bit. Thats what I did and it worked !
Not sure if slipping-tight is ok though, Anwar would comment on that.

When are you getting it back in the air ?

Graphical representation here.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14398634&postcount=12133

Tomorrow :thumbsup:

Slipping at the addition of a small amount of force seems a bit on the "too loose" end.  The way I was doing it was to apply a medium level of pressure and get one side of the belt to go  half way towards the side (when the belt is mounted and show up as two parallel lines).  This is similar to the illustration in your post above. 

Like Rajesh mentioned in my earlier posting of the same information, it is the amount of pressure that is very subjective from person to person.  So the simplest is a "not too tight, not too loose" explanation.

Anyways, I will understand that well when I reach jakkur tomorrow. certain things like/pressure feel can only be touched/felt. Thats where the real flyers come in, when they explain standing next to me. ;)

Updating image here.

Had been to jakkur yesterday. Luckily Rajesh was there to help me out and there were Tons of problems.

First of all the blades were not tracking. We changed many settings/Blades only to realise that the feathering shaft might be bent in the previous shaft :banghead:

Also the tail heli was turning clockwise requiring constant left rudder inputs, and when suddenly raised the heli was turning anti clock wise. Rajesh trimmed it for me. I took the control of the TX. Guess what, I was dumb stuck, The Heli started moving away from me and my fingers are not moving at all. All the sim practice didn't even kick in to make me come back into my senses.  I gave the TX to Rajesh and he started getting it back to us and as bad luck would have it, the ESC started cutting of the battery due to low voltage. Luckily Rajesh's quickness helped land the Heli in 1 piece.

Posted a few questions on RCGroups as the majority of the HK Gyro Users are there.

Got back the answers saying that the head speed was not even reaching 1600 at my settings, where it was supposed to reach 2500 minimum, before the pitch curve should kick in , this was causing the causing the heli turn Anti Clockwise when suddenly pitched up. This also explains why the battery lasted for 4 mins when it was supposed to last 9 mins. The slow head speed and the heavy pitch required to take the Heli off was screwing up the efficiency by 50% ;D

Also got back responses saying that I need to Trim the Heli in rate mode, moving the Servo manually (as suggested by Anwar long back here), and then switch the gyro switch rapidly thrice, to get a good head lock.

I still have a feeling that Gyro was damaged in the previous crash, let me mount another  Gyro and see how that ones behaves.

Thanks to Rajesh, I learnt a Hell lot of tips from him :thumbsup: and saved my Heli finally. Lots of work on the Heli, and I will do it some time later this week.

The HK 401B is claimed to be a direct/true knock-off of the Futaba GY401, and the claim is that the setup and performance is similar.

If you did not have enough headspeed, the heli would show a slow nose to tail rocking motion while hovering (like the head would dip a bit and the tail would be higher than the head, then the tail would dip and the head would be higher than the tail, so the rocking is on an axis perpendicular to the ground).  This is the classic indication of lack of headspeed. 

And this is in contrast with other gyro issues (like incorrect gain) where the tail wags or drifts in an axis that is parallel to the ground.

There wasn't any significant wobbling to indicate a low head speed. But the gyro was drifting and never wagged even after going to full gain which also could indicate low head speed. Anyway before I even looked at them I wanted to get the blades to track decently. Changing the link length was giving inconsistent results, could be the feathering shaft as Vinay said he didn't check it after his crash.

There was another thing that got me thinking. Does the orientation of the gyro installation matter ?    To make it more clear, the gyro is installed on a plane perpendicular to the main shaft. Can it be rotated to any position on this plane ? Some installations I have seen indicates that it does work. From an engineer's perspective, it does take a sensor capable of sensing two axis and a software that has to find the resultant vector from the two axis. Could be that all gyros do this, I just never thought about it.

True, I should have clarified that the "nose to tail" wobbling happens in a particular range of "not enough" throttle (main blade rpm).  If the head speed is even below that, the symptoms you saw would be more prevalent.

Some blades are warped, and it is hard to get good tracking on them (especially after crashes).

Never saw any proof so far that the orientation of the gyro (within the axis it is compensating for) making any difference in gyro performance. I have seen people mount it religiously at a 45degree angle (in the same axis), but I never felt the need to try it.

A quick search does bring this up though, where it is suggested that rotating it by 90degrees is one thing to try if there is drift in HH mode.

http://www.futaba-rc.com/faq/faq-gyros-q1122.html

Wonder if it is more a trick to compensate for design/performance issues, and whether this is model specific :headscratch: 

Anwar, Id did not make much diff I belive after the orientation change of the Gyro, though I am not sure as I did not fly the Heli. Also it is true that some blades are warped. we changed the blades and the off tracking reduced almost by 60 to 70 percent. ;D

When it comes to gyro mounting, I always felt that the foam padding is more important in gyro performance as compared to orientation.

Well, I used the ones that came with the Heli, it was a good one, and everybody seems to be using the same pad on their Helis, never came across a thread where people are complaining about it.

It is not about using a particular brand of padding etc.  It is more about the impact of proper padding on gyro performance. It certainly is one of the things to look to, when you are running out of options for gyro tuning.

What do you expect me to do, I have this padding also with me

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=8999

Make it double layered and use it? :headscratch:

I don't think you have run out of options in terms of gyro tuning, right ? :) 

Just do the rate mode setup first, and then switch to HH. It is very very rare that you have to look at padding issues etc.

Does the steel plate between the 2 layers of foam make a big difference ? I see that on all other gyros, but i guess you are not using that. Maybe the steel plate prevents some vibration from creeping up to the gyro ?

Anwar, is this the tail belt for TREX/HK450? its 397T

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280438580042&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_1779wt_939

Ya confirmed here, its the same :)

http://www.helidirect.com/align-drive-beltxl-397-mxl-ht1003-fits-450-p-192.hdx

I am afraid we are going on a tangent with this ;) 

Usually what ships with the gyro is the obvious/best choice, as the manufacturer has confirmed that it works great for THAT gyro.  What I was suggesting is that when you have unexplained tail issues even after ensuring the basic setup, then one of the things you have to look at is how the gyro is mounted. And at this point, I found that the orientation (in the same axis) was not significant, but the foam/pad used for mounting of the gyro has a good impact on performance.

BTW the gyro HK 401 does NOT come with any sort of padding or steel plate or anything to attach it to the helicopter. You are supposed to devise your own ways...

But the Heli comes with one ;) But its not suggested to reuse it.

I doubt the drift was due to vibration as the drift was significant. If not corrected, it would have done a full piro in under 10s. It was as if it was not detecting the center correctly. One thing I forgot totally about was to reset the center. In a Futaba 401, 3 quick full deflections of the rudder stick to either side will reset the gyro. Should have tried this to see if the drift goes away. Same could be achieved by toggling between rate and HH mode 3 times. HK gyro might have the same feature.

Rajesh,

I tried yesterday night and 3 flips of the gyro switch and the center was detecting properly with blinking light-and a steady glow. But I will bring additional gyro next time so we can fix in 15 mins any problems.

Never had to do that (3 flicks to ensure centering) on original Futaba 401s, because I always tend to setup in rate mode first. In rate mote, the centering is always there, and the 3 flick trick is needed if you are doing setup in HH mode.

But in your case, it looks the rate mode setup was never done, OR was it done yesterday on the field and you still had issues ?

PS: I have mentioned this "centering of servo in HH mode by flicking the sticks" here : http://www.rcindia.org/helis/hk-450-mt-build-thread/msg12947/#msg12947

No we directly put it in HH mode and took off.

That should have worked, at least it has in the past whenever I have helped others quickly setup their helis.

There seems to be a problem with the gyro, Not sure though. I will replace it and update here when I am free. :thumbsup:


This is a cheap HK Gyro not the futaba, so problems may be there. :(

Yes, it should have worked. But the symptoms are like the center was not learned correctly. So my thinking to make it learn again and see if that fixes it.

Voila! Eureka! Found the problem!!!

The radio was acutually mixing Throttle to rudder by 20% ie, revolution mixing was on. I think this might be the issue. I need to disable this right?

That is it.
You certainly need to disable that mix !! Great to hear you found out

http://www.rcindia.org/helis/thunder-tiger-mini-titan-arf-pro-build/msg13161/#msg13161 

I thought you were watching this thread :headscratch:  ;)

I was actually busy with my own thread  ;D Also the revo combined with low head speed was the final issue. Now do I still need to do the Rate mode adjustment or straight away jump to HH?

The answer to that question is "How lazy are you" ;D 

Seriously, it is recommended that you do it rate mode first, but if you want to just test fly it, go with HH.  When you get over the excitement ;) you can always go back and do "The Right Thing (tm)" !

Its not about laziness, its all about patience ;D after all, after all that reading, understanding, building, crashing, repairing, Heck lots of sim practice, Headaches of y this is like this, I atleast want to hover my own Heli (:|~ My first RC device, that I had been waitiing from since I was in 5th standard. Hope you understand my feelings ;)

I totally understand ;) 

And unless you start doing "tail-out inverted" flights (like "hurricane" maneuvers), you may not even feel the need for doing the rate mode setup first (or course, depending on the gyro capabilities).

That is probably later ;D. But first thing is that if the heli flies well, I will ask Rajesh to test fly it in 3D mode. I want to know what the hype is all about the TREX clones and the HK401B Gyro. Also before flying this weekend I will be changing the ESC from TowerPro 40H to the far SUPERIOR Switched BEC Turnigy Plush 40A. (:|~ . I still need to solder the XT60 Power Connectors and the 3.5mm bullet connectors to it. :violent:

Oh CRAP!

All this time I was thinking that the HK450 MT was a V1 head. I just removed the head to check for the feathering shaft, and OFFF fell the thrust bearing on the table, I looked up and saw a huge 4mm feathering shaft sitting there. (:|~

I Now have 4 3mm feathering shaft with me ordered from Hobby City thinking my Heli had a v1 Head.  :P

Luckily the feathering shaft is not bent at all! I put it back using blue locktite. Time to order from EBAY  ;D

Those rubber dampers on the feathering shaft are critical to blade tracking.  Since you had problems with tracking, that is one thing you should pay attention to while you are re-assembling that area.

Just checked the TREX V2 head diagram. They go inside the head. I think there will be 4 of them, 2 on each side Correct? How to check if they are bad? Will they be loose?

http://www.completeheli.com/T-Rex-450SE-V2-Rotorhead-Assembly-Parts

I believe number 5 is the damper O rings?

Apart from warped Blades, Does bad tracking means different pitch on each blades?

Even if they were loose, I dont have spare dampers, I have v1 dampers only. Have to order.

Right, two on each side (Align part # HH2018).  This is the one where I was saying that you can temporarily get away with cutting small pieces of glow fuel tubing.

If they are not worn out or missing, then you will not be able to "tilt" the blades inside the head, and they will be a "snug" fit. They tend to loosen after many flights.

The common solution to blade tracking is to adjust the small linkage that connects the main blade holder to the see-saw arm below. Obviously, this can result in slightly different main blade pitch between the two blades.  In such cases, better tracking has more value than exact same pitch on both blades.  It is rare that you run into this though, as it is really an indication of either some bent parts or warped blades or linkage rods not being symmetrical (in length).

F shaft not bent. dampers are snug fit.

So blades are bad. ;D

Anwar, when tightening the screws of the feathering shaft, I tightened them FULLY with loctite(blue). Now when I rotate the blade holder, w/o connecting the ball links, they are not as smooth as before. its very slightly clicky. I mean its very slight, i can only feel it. did I over tightened it?


EDIT: Also are these the right part?

http://www.helipross.com/align-t-rex-450-drive-belt-xl-ht1003-1.html
http://www.helipross.com/align-t-rex-450-feathering-shaft-hs1251.html
http://www.helipross.com/align-t-rex-450-f3-8m-thrust-bearing-hs1268.html
http://www.helipross.com/align-t-rex-450-damper-rubber-set-hs1266.html

We all tighten the feather shafts pretty well with blue loctite, as we don't want the main blades to shoot off like arrows in flight ;)

If you are feeling "clicky" movements, that would *typically* point to bad/worn bearings in the main blade holder (those would be parts numbered 10 and 11 in the picture you posted above). I would say continue flying it until you have some more/real reason to investigate further.

Yes, these are the right parts.

ok, I will order tomorrow then, Helipross is cheaper compared to other, including the expensive ems shipping.

Is there any alternative for this you guys use at the club? They are pretty expensive stuff. :thumbsdown:

http://www.helipross.com/align-t-rex-450-anti-rotation-bracket-spacer-hs1232-1.html

You will have to find cheaper sources, does HC not have them ?

BTW, why are you getting spare ones ? Typically you do not have to remove them when you want to remove the head !  Just pull the swash all the way to the top manually (like you are at maximum pitch), slightly bend the top of the anti-rotation bracket backwards (away from the main shaft), and the long ball link on the swash can be pulled out of the anti-rotation bracket. I never had to remove this part unless I was changing the frame itself !

I think the ones on the right side of the pics are used to hold the servos in place. Its like the nuts for the servo screws. not sure what anti rotation brackets are.

Anwar, How long before helipross ships?

I booked on 24th night.

Current Status:     Processed.

Looks like HeliDirect had faster processing time of just 6 hrs ;) but way too expensive. :(

Helipross sometimes takes a few days (I have had up to 4).

Guys and Gals,

Had been to jakkur yesterday and flew the heli, and all the problems had solved. The head speed last time was a bit slow, this time upped it to 2850 and the tail started slightly wagging. Have to reduce the gain slightly. But the Gyro was holding up with no drift at all. I hovered it for like 40 seconds and then my fingers started shaking. Gave the TX back to Rajesh to land it. :giggle:

Also finally I put the TX in 3D mode -10 +10 with V power curve to test fly it w/o the training gear. Rajesh flew and concluded that its good for hovering and circuits but there was some problem when the heli was inverted, said that the Gyro may not be holding properly or something. Only he can comment on what was happening  ;D as I was only a spectator.

Well to be frank it is no way even 25% as stable as the Mini Titan that Gaurav was hovering in the Video. But I believe that If I can master this Heli, I can fly any Heli in the future as bigger the Heli gets, the more stable they will be.

I also downloaded the TREX 450 V2 addon for the RF G4.5 here
http://knifeedge.com/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=8136

The Heli is still giving me only 4 to 5 mins of hovering instead of 9 mins. I will try some other settings on this sat and see where the problem is. It should either be
1) Tail belt is tight (Adarsh said the belt tightness was perfect)
2)Pinion gear too near the main gear
3)Motor has an issue.
Any other suggestions? Though If I rotate the head manually, then it will turn 3 to 4 rev before coming to a halt. Doubting the motor. :headscratch:

I think that with a lower head speed(2800) my Heli is a lot stable that the one on the sim(3100). Since I dont have a choice of flying until next sunday, I will practice hovering on the sim on that 450 addon, that should make hovering my Heli a little easier. Since I was free today and no work on the Heli finally  :bow:, I thought I will work on my Tea Racer  ;).

http://www.rcindia.org/electric-planes/tea-racer-build-thread/

Great !

About the flying time, have you tried multiple batteries (or someone else's batteries) ? Another suspect is bad connections/soldering.

Good to see the tail issues are resolved. I guess you went directly to HH mode, and it worked fine. I was hoping that the gyro would hold well in 3D mode also, hoping to see Rajesh/Rotorzone pitching in with what was wrong in 3D mode. 

I am pretty sure the tail issues that Gaurav is seeing are also something simple/similar.  Just going through the radio and ensuring no mixes are enabled inadvertently is a good idea.

It was my batteries only and people using the same motor/ESC/11T pinion are getting 9 mins hovering time at 15 amps current draw on the same 2200 3S flight max battery. I have to solder connectors to watt meter yet and then check. The solder is all perfect anwar, Iam an electronics engineer infact ;).

Yup, we went directly in HH mode, where is the time to test in rate mode ;). Also I dont want to steal much of Rajesh's time. He is already doing more help than I expect from anybody at the field. So when I learn hovering stably, I will do the rate mode trimming as you suggested.

Yup, even I was expecting some good performance from the Gyro when doing flip/loops etc. Don't know what the problem is.  :headscratch:

AFAIK Gaurav has switched off revolution mixing. Hope to hover well next time.  ;D

Check the motor timing. Wrong timing can result in higher current consumption and motor and esc heating up. But still the effect can't be as much as 50% as you are seeing.

Regarding the 3D mode, I didn't pursue it fully to find out the cause. It is working good enough for Vinay's need to hover and do circuits for now. Didn't want to risk a crash with a misbehaving heli. It was all over the place on flips. Once the gyro gave away too. Could be a setup issue or may be just bad blades, it is still not tracking properly. Also I had to take it high since it was misbehaving and that didn't aid the visibility.

There is a little play in the swash and the links are a little too loose on the balls too. All these might be adding up to the problem.

Timing was in low mode only.

The swash play is slightly more than the new piece that I inspected at ujjwals house on his new heli. The ball links are loose because I had removed them over a 10 times during assembling as I was learning to assemble. I plan to replace all the ball links after my next crash (Hope not to crash again though  ;)).

However my next Heli will be as perfect as I can possible get it too. :thumbsup:

I cant help with the blade tracking as the blades them self are warped or the blade holders are slightly bent, which are not visible to the naked eye so near to the center. They only become apparent at the far edge of the blade. :(

The HK450TT PRO is da house :)  Will build and test fly in the next couple of days.

What electronics are u planning to use?

Transferring from my Trex 450 SE v2, which has a broken frame.

http://www.rcindia.org/rc-people/anwar-from-kerala/msg640/#msg640

Looks Yummy  (:|~ but those things are way too expensive for me :P But since you fly 3D, you have to use those only I suppose.

<Posting on Vinay's behalf, as he is far in his native town fields and flying 20 sorties a day!!>

Some doubts form Vinay:

1. Should the ESC Break setting ON/OFF ?
2. After 4-5 min of flight some metallic "Kir...Kir" sound is coming  out .. any idea what could be the culprit ?

Great going !! Looks like Vinay is having some fun. Cant wait to see some pictures/videos.

From what i know, no need to set up ESC braking. No-brake mode should be OK. Because even if the motor is braked, the rotor would spin due to the autorotation gear. So no reason to use energy and brake the motor.

Now the Kir-kir sound could be coming from the motor, or from one of the bearings. Since it comes after 4-5 mins could be related to motor temperature.
But need more info to help further. Does it come at a specific throttle/speed ? Is it a high pitched metallic squeal ?

Others, more experienced here, can guide you better here.

hi guys,
yes 'brake' should be set at 'off' this is only for 'planes' not heli.
regards
don

AFAIK the brake settings should be set to ON.

Here is what happens.

When the brake is off and you pull the throttle down, I noted that the Turnigh PLUSH ESC slowly and steadily reduces the motor speed to zero (takes bloody 3 to 4 seconds). This will eat away the gears in case of a crash.

If brake set to ON, then when you pull the Hold switch or pull down the throttle then the ESC will immideatly stop the main gear from spinning and getting eaten away. I experimented this morning and I strongly feel Like BRAKE SHOULD BE ON!  ;)

Welcome back Vinay. We all missed your presence here.

I think When you have the brake to OFF, and you pull down the throttle, the ESC simply cuts power, and the motor rotates with its inertia.

When the motor rotates with its inertia, and with no input voltage, current is induced in the coil. When the brake mode is ON, the ESC shorts the circuit, and hence the motor comes to an instant halt.

Thats what i deduced.

Ya, may be you are right, But the brakes ON actually does the the right job to the heli right? in saving the gears from being eaten. Also I do not think its the inertia. What I noted was that even though I tried slowing down the motor with my finger with brakes off, the motor hesitated to slow down and took its own time.  :headscratch:

Right.  Brake ON leaves power in the coil to forcefully stop the blades. On some ESCs, there is "OFF, Soft Brake and Hard Brake" settings, the last two differing on how abrupt the stopping is.

When it comes to helis with auto-rotations ability (one way bearing), it does not really matter whether brake is on or off, either way the blades will freewheel. One helis without auto capability, brake is critical, that it should be turned off.

The preferred setting for brake is OFF for all helis in general.

Anwar think of the scenario in NGChannel aircraft accidents investigation style :bow:

With brakes OFF:
1)Saturday @ 6: 15 AM 30 seconds  : The Heli is about to hit a wall in 2 seconds :banghead:
2)Saturday @ 6: 15 AM 31 seconds  : You suddenly pull down the Hold switch realizing a crash in advance.
3)Saturday @ 6: 15 AM 32 seconds  : The Heli hits the wall and the head is stopped instantaneous. Forget free wheeling here. The head is stopped in microseconds.
4)Saturday @ 6: 15 AM 32.2 seconds: The ESC is braked OFF and is still spinning the wheel.
5)Saturday @ 6: 15 AM 32.4 seconds: The motor had main gear and some other parts for break fast!  ;)

With brakes ON:
1)Sunday @ 6: 15 AM 30 seconds  : The Heli is about to hit a wall in 2 seconds :banghead:
2)Sunday @ 6: 15 AM 31 seconds  : You suddenly pull down the Hold switch realizing a crash in advance.
3)Sunday @ 6: 15 AM 31.8 seconds: The ESC is braked ON and Gear is stopped. (But motor can still rotate if rotated by hands)
4)Sunday @ 6: 15 AM 32 seconds  : The Heli hits the wall and the head is stopped instantaneous. Forget free wheeling here. The head is stopped in microseconds.
5)Sunday @ 6: 15 AM 32.4 seconds: The Main gear and other parts are saved!  ;)

Correct me If I am wrong.

Also free wheeling is a concept that helps in case of power failure or motor failure to land the heli. The one way bearing does nothing in case of a crash to save the gear. Its just a mechanism to glide down.

Now I want a scenario why brakes should be OFF.

RCI Missed me? I thought every body had some peace of mind for a few days here at RCI!  ;D ;D ;D

I have seen various reasons for this being discussed.

1. On helis without the one-way autorotation setup, you lose any remaining possibility for landing with some rpm in the blades.

2. Sudden brake in some cases cause the teeth of the main gear to grind off, due to inertia from the head.

3. Sudden stops cause the heli to swerve on the tail un-commanded, as if an unknown amount of rudder is applied.

4. In your example, if the blades hit something in a crash during the time the ESC is applying the brakes, that does more damage than it would have otherwise.

5. And finally, if you are like me, there will be one day in your life when you forget to turn on 3D mode yet go inverted ;D  Brake is that last thing you want in that scenario !

Well ANwar here is what I feel. Dont consider this as an argument but rather as an active discussion. I have least experience in RC and my doubts are high.

For a change.  HK plastik and MT.

The MT crashed into a tall grass when hovering nose in.

Main gear shredded, both jesus bolts broken, HXT gears shredded so changed them the MG 14s, no problems with MG 14 this time. Main shaft slighty slightly slightly bent, I may replace it as it is causing a lil vibrations.

If the discussion is about auto-rotation enabled models, then your example of hitting the wall is completely superfluous, as there is no real difference at the blade level in either case. 

The only thing that matters is the possibility of main gear teeth getting ripped of due to the inertia between the main gear and the motor pinion itself. And that is why the general advice is always to let the main gear the motor freewheel, by turning off brakes.

And even though I mentioned that the presence of the autorotation gear pretty much nullifies the effect of brake (and such helis are the norm these days), I kept on mixing examples of ones with and without that capability.  In summary, brake has become less of an issue now, except for the main gear teeth.

Flew 6 batteries today. Temp was around 38 degree celcius (100 degree F).

I did not take my cap and I literally killed myself in the sun for 4 hrs.   :P

Here is what I noted.

1)The new HK401 gyro is still not holding (with the DS480). Its slightly drifting. On my first pack it held well then started to drift after some time. Temperature is the problem?  :confused: If yes next time I will tie a white piece of cloth around the gyro or place it below the Heli.

2)I heard some metallic rubbing noise. That kind a 'kirr kirr' noise that comes when a knife is sharpened against a rotating surface. At first I thought it was the motor, now I am doubting the main shaft bearings as they were slightly notchy after 2 crashes. Any idea from where else it may come. It comes at above 60% throttle.

3)Didnt like the slow head speed. :P I tried 0 75 75 75 80 and it was crappy on 2215 11t. Put it back to 0 75 90 90 100 and it was fine. :D

Ok, My HK450 MT was always drifting. I was very confused. I always suspected the heat and vibrations So I went ahead with the Anti-Vibration mod to the HK401B to avoid the slight drift.

The link explaining the mod is given below.

http://sergio.salvi.ca/2009/10/18/mystery-gyro-g401b-modifications/?src=hk


There is a slight modifications though. I applied hot glue on the boards that are perpendicular so that they wont break. But did not apply hot glue on all four side to stick the board to the plastic as explained in the above link.

I just Inserted the circuit back and stuffed in a lot of sponge.

There was a hard foam at the base of the Gyro cap that was holding the circuit in place. I removed that.

Then I finally used the Hobbico latex foam receiver wrapper to hold the circuit in place. It was a nice tight soft fit.

TO avoid the burning 40 degree C sun. I covered the Gyro with a white card board.

And I used 2 layers of tape to mount the Gyro.

Results? I flew the heli in tail in - nose right - nose left and did a couple of 8s at slow speed and high speed.  ;D ROCK SOLID.

The heli some times when I change battery still drifts. In such case I have to switch the rate-HH switch thrice and it again works.

OK Photos explain everything.

Finished 7 packs and I wanted to fly more  ;D

Guys,

Since I get only sundays for me to fly. Did 6 battery packs yesterday. I was still hesitent to remove the training gear, so went ahead with it and did some hovering, bascically nose left/right/in. I was able to bring the heli almost close to me on the nose in hovering and land it(with training gear of course.)

After some good practice and fast and slow 8s and some stall turns, decided to remove the the training gear for the last battery pack. I was a bit nervous but went on with it. Successfully did three 8s and back to the helipad.

What I noted was that my heli never used to wag even at full gyro gain with the landing gear and there was a slight drift occasinally. But after removing the landing gear, the tail started to wag and the drift was gone. A simple gain change and the wag was gone.

With Adarsh standing beside me, and with his encourangement and guidance I was able to do 5 Loops!!!  :thumbsup: That was great for a fresher like me. The only problem I see is the size of the Heli, as soon as it goes a few meter away, I cant even see it :( Time for an upgrade ?  8-) ;D

Some Photos:

1)My HK450 MT beside Adarsh's Raptor 90 with a CCPM head conversion.  :giggle:

2)Adarh's FBL Trex 600.  (:|~

3)Ujjwal fixing his Bluebaby!  :thumbsup:

Saw someone's mail blades fly off in different directions  last week, on an HK 450 GT Pro.  Apparently, the way HK ships these heli heads is tempting enough for people not to take it apart and rebuilt it themselves.  They seem to tighten it well enough to confuse people that they did a good job of putting it properly (with grease and threadlock).

Always take the head apart, and put it back together yourself on these HK ones.

Very TRUE!

As usual since I get only Sundays to fly and with 8 battery packs in mint conditions here are the updates:

1)The Pyro issue has vanished. I ramped up the EPA from 100 % to 150% and I get Crazy pyro rates. Something like 3 X 360* per second. It worked, and I could fly like a pro.(Did I?  :headscratch:  :giggle:)

2)Did 3 packs with training skid and removed them off for the rest 5 packs.

3)Jonied the Landing club. Did Tail - in, Nose left/right/IN landing w/o the training gear.  ;) couple of times.

4)Was able to do 900+* stall turns. (I dunno what its called, where you take the heli almost vertical, do a 1/2 pyro and come down.) Well I was able to do 3 pyros there ;). This has become my new favorite.

5)Did lots of loops and Well on the last battery I did a mistake of doing a loop against head wind and the heli touched the ground and bounced off at the bottom of the loop.
DAMAGE = the frame was bent the it got pressed towards the motors cooling fan and ate all its teeth! :p Luckily nothing more. I just corrected the bend with a nose plier and I was off to do more tricks.

LESSON LEARNT - Not to do loop against head wind, unless you have High HS and good altitude.

BTW - enjoyed a lot!!!

Problems faced: Iam not able to do aileron flip. The Heli totally loses orientation and almost comes down crashing - Is this the limitation of the HK401? the tail is DS480.

Elevator flips seems fine, but didn't try much as I am not comfortable Nose-In Inverted hovering on sim. Next time I will take camera.

Great going Vinay.. sigh!! missed the action y'day at Jakkur :(

Nice progress !

You wouldn't have to type this much if you had posted videos :giggle:

Next time for sure Anwar bhai.  :thumbsup:

Yes, loads of progress in a day!! From shaky thumbs to fearless flying is another change I noticed in your flying.

Change the spelling of Aadarsh dude... dont you want the member ship card ?

I am for sure he wont mind!  ;D

Yes Rajesh, I could fly like that on the sim, but it just took time to study and feel my heli! then it was easy. Even the wind did not bother me much ;)

The good thing is that, I dont use the spacebar too often on the sim, I usually fly till the fuel get over. Even if the heli is far, I try to get it back and land rather than pressing space bar. that gives real confidence and feel on how to handle a heli when its far - by giving slight input and reading its response.  :thumbsup:

With myself busy from a long time, and both my helis in crashed condition, I thought I will atleast post some pics to keep my building spirit up. All my helis will be revamped with new spare parts.

1)Red Romeo. - Spartan Quark Gold case- Futaba S9257 or MKS 8910 - henge 933 digital, 700 W motor, ICE 75 lite, TIG 325mm CF (based on suggestions from Rajesh).

2)Blue Angel. - Hk401B - ds480 - mg14 - 700 W motor, plush 40, HK 325mm CF.

3)Black Beauty - Futaba GY401 - ds480 - mg14 - 700 W motor, plush 40, HK 325mm CF.

OK, Built the 2 Helis - Blue Angel and Black beauty. The Fly beautifully!  :bow: :bow:

1)My 2/4 helis

2)Black Beauty - Gy401 and ds480

3)Blue angel - Hk401 and henge 922

4) 450 with the PRO tail with built in chinese weight mod

5) I have mounted the Gyro and the RX on the bottom plate where the vibrations are LEAST!

Hope you enjoyed!  :)

Forgot to add, I have tuned the head to such a level that Iam able to squeeze in +12.5 to -12.5 pitch  :giggle: on both the helis. Dont ask how much time I spend on building these. But they fly perfectly.

Trying to think this through... Wouldn't being so far away from the main blades (ie head) cause that location to have more vibrations than just mounting it under the tail boom block ? 

I have also  seen many times that that depending on the stiffness of the landing skids, they can vibrate quite a bit too, and being close to them may not be a good idea.  Plus, all bigger electric helis have them around the boom line (fuel engine ones have other considerations, making this decision obvious).

I touched the boom block and the the boom plate when heli was spinning at 3k rpm at 0 degrees. what I noted is that the boom block receives vibrations from head and tail both. Believe me its an HK heli(not as smooth as align) and I noted that the HK401 gyro performs better when placed below. The boom block was a vibrating nightmare. Though these 2 new helis that I have built vibrate very less, I thought its better they stay there in a safe place.

Also I have seen many people placing directly under the main shaft (sujju for example). But since the motor comes right besides it in the align model, I had to place it near the rear end of the bottom plate.

Which is the 700W motor you are using, this one ?

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8137

vinay.. most of my gyros are placed top or preferbly at the bottom of the boom block... i have placed the Mikado v bar unit of my fbl rave on the base plate only because the rave does not have boom block like the aligns ones... there is no harm in placing a gyro right below the main shaft or the bottom plate but only be careful when you crash inverted (the main shaft will hit the gyro directly)

Ya the same ones.

@sujju - ya I agree that it may pierce the gyro if crashed inverted.

Just crashed! I know a picture is worth a 1000 words.

1)Crashed canopy.

2)A link came off after crash.

3)I heard a flutter as the heli went out of control and crashed. Was this the culprit?

Watch the video. The flybad is inverted by 180 deg. I am now able to rotate the Flybar with lil effort. did the flybar turn and cause the flutter? :headscratch:

This was built with new head and tail. Was expecting atleast 70+ flights out of it. But failed after 10+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32A3vimR6No

So sad... the heli looks like Katrina struck her! (the cyclone - not the 'Shiela' one  :giggle: :giggle:  )

It broke my heart! Hope your much precious electronics are safe! I mean Quark and Castle combo.

vinay.. by the looks of it its not a bad crash... i think if you have the spares the heli can be up and flying in a matter of an hour... i have had crashed with the flybar wrapped around the main shaft and the frame broken into half, etc,, etc... so get this repaired and get it up in the air again buddy...

This is not the quark lady. This was the futaba guy.

Hey thanks sujju for your kind words! That really helps lift up the spirit.

List of things that might have gone bad.

1)Boom
2)Tail servo gears (Damn it the new ones cost 11$ for ds 480.) will be replacing this servo with a futaba S9257.
3)Tail and main blades.
5)Flybar.
6)Few links.
7)The elevator servo gears seems rough. Need to inspect them.
Havent checked feather yet. Dosent seem bend for bare eyes. But the dampers might have gone bad.

The main gear was saved because of my "Enable break" theory. I hit the TH 1.5 to 2 sec before crash. So that would have stopped the main gear before the head hit the ground.

To bad Castle software does not allow enable brakes in governor modes(worried for my new helis).

Vinay - I am sure you realize that it is a part of life in this hobby...  I hope it happened while you were trying aileron tic-tocs ! :) 

If you think about it... you will realize that the ultra cheap clones are not really a good choice when it comes to beefy upgrades and heavy flying.  They are good for beginning and circuits (plus rolls loops etc), but the difference in quality does cause issues, and you end up upgrading one bit at a time.  At least that was my experience.

Very True and very well said Anwar!  :thumbsup:

Iam upgrading a host of things on my 500.

1)Main blades - tig/align
2)tail blades - align plastic - red - visibility
3)Gorilla landing gears - Yellow - visibility sturdyness
4)yellow canopy - visibility
5)Main and tail auto gears
6)tail fins to yellow - visibility
7)feathering shaft and dampers.
8)Torque tube.
9)the tail shaft
10) And the plastic links that broke today on the 450.
11)Tail balde grips and the slider.
12)KBDD paddles green.


thats quite a list isnt it :giggle:? But i want to make sure that all the power transfer system is original and I get a choice of colours that i want.

I understand ur words meant its time to upgrade to all originals! A crash on a 500 is still forgiving for the HK price. 1000s fly it with only 2 parts changed. I want to give it a shot too.  ;)

I went looking for people doing "aileron tic-tocs" and more with the HK ones, not many are doing it :)  (at least when I checked a while earlier).

Let me be the first one to try it out  ;) I wasnt trying tic tocs yet, I was doing flips before I wanted to try tic tocs.

Here is my conclusion on my yesterday crash. Its those plastic unit on the photos that might have given way during that crash. I use the maximum cyclic aileron pitch that my swash allows. These plastic units are the ones that transfers power to the Flybars from the swash plate. This along with the No bog turnigy motor puts a lots of pressure. I will chage them to align.  I don't see any more weak links on the heli.  :headscratch:

One amazing vid for u. Its not even 500 CMT. Its the basic GT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elB8Av-Bp8o

I can see it has upgrades, the question is how much !

Still my "cheap" Indian thinking is not allowing me to think of 100% Align for 500 size.

Let me give it a shot. coz I already have purchased all the upgrades i have mentioned above.

This explains why my HK 450 Mysteriously fluttered and crash! Pic of align vs Hk(that broke mid flight when I pushed it) Plastic arms.

Ever wondered how small balls are in an RC  heli bearing?

wow ! you lose it...and you lost it !

What? I didnt get you.

the too tiny ball bearings  ;D

haha, its any way toast :D I dont have v2 heads anymore. The only v2 I have has a pro head now as the plastic arms in the pic above were having issues. No wonder Align changed the design in pro series.

Wow Vinay! you fly awesome

I wish I could  :(. Thats not my video sir!  ;)

Oh - no worries, we will one day!

ya, we will.
Iam regretting the HK 500 align hybrid build. no guts to push it. Have to order an upgrade part, since gears are not compatible with each other. should have listened to Sujju/Anwar earlier. :(