RC India

Hey all

Been ignoring the tail wag on my trex 500 FBL for a while now(heli's mechanically healthy), 'cos I was pretty sure it's the align gyro acting up against vibes.(Have tried all combinations of pads, spartan metal plate and gyro bondage in the past but wag seems to be very determined  :banghead: )
And about fiddling with ail, ele gain on the 3g contoller-yes, been there done that too.

Recently been reading considerably on the option of increasing head speed at the lower end of the throttle curve, so as to bring down the wag. Changed my normal throttle curve from 0-25-50-75-100 to 0-45-75-90-100
This helps a bit, but don't feel it's a great idea though, except that it may be a half sick work around.

Anyone been able to nail down the trex 500 tail wag PERFECTLY yet? :help:
Experimenting with bypassing the align tail gyro and putting my Quark in place as the last resort.

unfortunaltey i never tried the align fbl electronics and i never had any wag problems with the fbl 500... are your gain settings fine?.. want to check again on any binding.. yes you can still bypass and have the quark but the purpose of having the fbl sytem would be lost...
i have a few friends flying the align fbl electronics on their 500 esp's and they seem to be perfect and rock solid (except during hard piro stops).. i dont know if am right anwar flys a 500 fbl with align electronics (anwar pls correct me) and he might be able to throw more light on this..

Hey Sujju

Thanks for the suggestions
Putting in the quark just to make sure that the issue is the align gyro or not. Planning to stick on to the 3g itself anyway, 'cos the wag is not tremendous. Besides, I gotta put my quark back on my broken belt cp once spares arrive.

Have already checked for tail binding, blade tracking et al..nothing seemed to be out of place though (or I am missing something considering I acknowledge myself to be rather careless  ;D)
Tried gain between the range 32 and 17 on my futaba 7c in GY mode. Didn't help a bit.
This wag is kinda there in rate mode too.


Anwar Sir, looking up to your advice...Let me know if posting a video would help.

My own 500 is non-FBL, the Align 3G system was not available when I got it (if I remember correctly).  I have zero wag !

I do have someone's 550E 3G with me as of today, I had helped setup it up earlier, and it also had zero tail wag issues.  That said, there are documented "mod"s to the Align 3G sensor system to handle vibrations better (including hot-glueing the 3 gyros inside the sensor unit).

In terms of what you have tried so far, a tail wag (horizontal wag of the tail, parallel to the ground) cannot usually be fixed by headspeed adjustment.  If that is the wag you are facing, it is usually one of these :

1.  A gain issue, which you have attempted to fix.  But this type of gain is easy to notice, as the wag is pretty fast.

2.  A mechanical issue.  This could be a binding issue, or a lack of lube issue, or a screw being loose (the last one I fixed on our field was a case where the tail blades had started coming loose, resulting in a somewhat slow, like 5 times a second, wag on the tail).

3. Gyro issues.  This can can be mounting issues, or the internal sensors being not properly fixed etc.

Now if your wag is a nose-to-tail wag (which is vertical in nature, and completely different from the horizontal wag of the tail mentioned above), then it is a headspeed issue, and throttle curve increases (or pitch decrease) should take care of it.

Post a video, if possible.  The last time someone mentioned something like this on the forum, it turned out to be small enough to be ignored (or considered "within normal limits").

Anwar, this is my video with the quark enabled and the align gyro bypassed. Please note that, when flying with the align gyro, I keep it at the same location where the quark is placed right now(and not at the top where align gyro sits now in video).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaG8CbpITA

I just offset the rudder servo a bit to indicate that I'm in HH mode(centered it before take off).My gyro gain is 30%
The video section before the first landing of the heli is at 50% on midstick in the throttle curve while hovering whereas the one after first landing is at 70% on midstick. Pitch is 50% on futaba(meaning 0) for both cases(and both are normal mode, fyi ).  You don't get to see any tail wag or bob in this short video.  And this is when the quark is placed on just average quality foam tape. I wish I could've managed a better video though.

Tomorrow I will change back to my align gyro and write you a totally different story for both the throttle curves. And will see if I can get a better video in day light.

We really need to see the Align video, to take this forward.  But the Quark does provide the baseline in terms of how it should be !

Yes of course Anwar, I will do the align video today and post. Didn't get time yesterday for resetup of the align

Here comes the video with the align gyro. Anwar, yes it is a bob and not a wag.Excuse me when the video goes out of perspective, I sat my cam on a chair and took the video..
 :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sthd38FoU9c

The first section before the second landing(when the rotor stops spinning) is at 50% (at midstick) on the throttle curve in normal mode.
Second section(after the second landing) is at 75%(at midstick) on the throttle curve in normal.

Both tests seem to bob the tail almost at same amplitude though the higher head speed helps a tad. The 3g sensor is kept snug enough(when i try to nudge the sensor with hand, the heli moves as a whole)

Can you keep the sensor unit of the 3G system at the top, behind the anti-rotation guide ?  Also try reducing the elevator gain in the 3G sensor, by turning the pot on the FBL controller unit.

I had tried these Anwar

Results were unfortunate :(

Keeping sensor at the top increased the bob further.
Had tried it in the receiver tray at the bottom as well. Didn't help.

Fiddled with various elevator gains from 9 through 12 o'clock as well. Sadly, the bob stays no matter what until i switch to my beloved quark.

(Btw, gyro gain is currently at 30%. Changing that also doesn't help tho it's for the wag)

Maybe something is amiss(and I can't find anything) in my mechanical setup that's causing too much body vibes that align cannot handle? I mean the quark is a smart gyro and it might be doing extra work to keep the heli steady. God forbid that might overheat quark to eventual death?(nyway, I'm not keeping my quark on it cos it's for the belt cp). I checked again and again to make sure all screws are tight enuf, all wires are routed well with nothing stikin out, loctite's in place wherever required, lubes are fine everywhere, no binding on tail...phew I'm out! :'(

The important thing is that this is not a tail wag.  So a change to a gyro (Quark) that only affects the tail (and controls the drift in an axis perpendicular to the wag we are seeing now) should not affect what is going on. It does not look like it is mechanical, it should have shown up in all cases, if that was the case.

The issue is elevator wag (for lack of a better term).  And it does not look like it is a low throttle (curve) issue.  So it looks like a sensor issue, or a sensor mounting issue.

BTW, I do see that the wag has almost disappeared at times, which makes me wonder if ground effects are a factor.  Have you hovered outside, at above 5 feet or higher ?

do u have the latest software?

or is it 1 of the older units?

have u tried to strap the gyro with some velcro strap or only used double sided tape?

have u checked for vibrations like spool up with no main blades and tail control rod disconnected  and tail blades mounted?

The logic in your thought convinces me.
But, if that was a probability, I should've got the same response while bypassing the align gyro with the quark right? (unless the quark indirectly corrects for the ele wag(assuming ele wag in turn causes tail to shake)) I mean the elevator control is still with the align controller, I only bypassed the align tail gyro. Thinking about what you said, I don't understand why the quark is able to absorb the anomalies or why heli should hold well with the quark. The positioning, wiring, mech setup, controller setup and Tx setup are all the same. Interestingly it started off solid, the moment quark was put on.


Also, similar analogy for ground effects and downwash. Heli is solid with the quark even when close to the ground.  Besides I tried it at about 5.5 feet inside and it is same. Can't catch the video for lack of a good resting position for my cam at such height except my shoulders(if it's not another way of saying I stand at 6 feet  ;D)
And doing that, I wouldn't like to drop my cam to save my heli  >:D

Will still try outside, when it ain't that windy. And will try tweaking the ele gain again, but wondering why the quark doesn't act up with the same gain..beats me..beats me a second time when I think of thinning down my wallet again for a Beast X or a mikado mini v.

@clayboy

S/w:v2.1
Velcro: Tried with and without(and at various tightness)

Yet to try spool up without main blades. Will do that and let you know.


Thanks

if u get like razor like vibes try without tail blades and check if vibes goes away, fbl do not like razor kind of vibes ,

also tight gear mesh to motor can make vibes that gyro not like, should normally not b a problem but if u got a sensor that is a bit sensetive,

if u cant get it working maybe a faulty sensor? maybe u can borrow a sensor from some 1
 

I remember Reading a long time ago people had problem with lose sensors in the 3g and used hot glue to fix the sensors. beleve that is the way align do it as well on the new units. if u can't get it working maybe it would b a idea to open it up and hot glue them. align have no warrenty anyway

Well, there's some progress :)

Arrested some bad vibes today.
Probably the fast twitch in my tail was due to an ever so slight bent in the tail boom!
I pulled out the boom and rolled it on the floor; noticed unevenness.
I assume the bent was caused due to considerable flying after installation of a third party horizontal carbon stabiliser which didn't have the trapezoidal cut in its midsection(the cut actually seats the boom properly). The uneven force caused hereby towards one direction, should've got the boom bent. See no other reason, though this may not be one strong enough.
Replaced the stabiliser with align stab(was saving it for fear of crashes, jees what a miser I am  ;D) and put in a new tail boom also.
Thinking of upgrading to a carbon fibre boom as well later.

After installing the align stab and new boom, the vibes and the fast twitch(razor vibes) in the tail stopped;
and with elevator setting still at 12:00 o'clock and 70% headspeed at midstick, the tail bob(the vertical motion) vanished. Hoping the 70% headspeed is okay at midstick.

Sadly the wag(horizontal) still remains like it has been(yes, fiddled with the gain)
Yet to completely demystify the wag! Could be a 3g sensor issue after all.

Thanks Anwar, Clayboy..will post updates with videos. Meanwhile any other suggestions?

if the vibes are totally gone i would do a bench test again but dislocate the servo from the push rod this time spool up and pull it back and forward to feel so the tail doesent bind.

aligns softstart is good so i would go 0-70-80 -90-100.

if the tail servo is up to scratch i would open the 3g unit and hot glue the sensors, if there is no vibes or no binding and a fast servo it should not wag horizontal with a properly working gyro.

u can put a piece of tape from the side of the wall to the sensor and dot a bit of hotglue to make it solid, if a sensor is slightly loose it will do strange things and it has been problem with the 3g before with loose sensors

See the whole complication is that the heli is well behaved with the Spartan, in terms of the vertical wag (I can see how the Spartan fixes the horizontal tail wag, but NOT the vertical wag!).

In any case, doing the sensor mod (hot glue or silicone) seems like a good idea !

could b the control loop. control loop is not compleate if 1 sensor is disconnected sins ail and elevatot sensor have no clue what the spartan is doing, when connected if loose i guess it can make funny things, but i am only guessing, i have never used a 3g nor fiddle around with it

Yes, I guess it has to be the sensor. Posting a video here after the tail and stab replacement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGg5TWeJg6o
You would see it behaving much better. Unfortunately the horiz wag is not visible in this video though it can be seen with naked eyes, maybe I will try to take another video from the rear to see if it can be captured.


Anwar, you meant vertical wag ?(or more accurately termed bob).

@Clayboy: I've ordered a Futaba S9254 to see if it holds the tail better than the align DS520. And I've ensured there's no binding in tail.

Yes, I meant vertical wag... corrected ;)

This flight can be considered as normal (from the video alone).  If there is slight horizontal wag, that would not be visible in other types of flying (ie, other than hovering).

In any case, practically everyone is doing the hot glue mod on the Align 3G sensors.

Yes, when I do pitch pumping, I don't see the wag. Anything fast, don't see the wag.
But I am obsessed or posessed or watchamacallit; just can't live with the wag at hover  ;D

So it practically comes down to "shoot it down with the glue gun"; oh well  >:( why did align make such a bad donut!

So here's a picture of my 3g sensor's underbelly...

And guess what, align's already shod the sensors and connector in epoxy(guess it is missing on one sensor though). So that mod is now out of the question   :P
Maybe I will try some Zeal contacting all three sensors as well

Is putting in some chewed wrigley spear mint gum a bad idea? (At least I can remove it if things don't work out) Also, the gyro would smell good  :giggle:

Hey, is it a Mikado mini V buzzing in my ears  (:|~

Hmmm... don't see why the mod is out of question.  Have you seen the pictures of some of them with the mod, they have shoved in quite a bit of hotglue/silicone !

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=align+3g+sensor+mod&biw=1431&bih=710

i have limited Internet now so I can not c your video but is the wag bad? or just a slight movement?
can u do a funnel or do backward flying.
I guess it is still a vibe problem. have u tried new tail blades?

or get a mini with pro update and use the event log and spectrum analyzer
or a full size and use the gov witch is the best on the Market  and use a flat throttle curve

talking about gov u don't have the governer activated in the esc? that will give u wag for sure

Looking out for some Zeal, Anwar.

Btw, I just squished in a rolled square piece of BeastX ad tape in between the 3 sensors and guess there's a minor difference in tail wag. Need to ensure that today though, by putting in some more. I used such tape since I can easily remove it. If this improves the tail even a slight bit, I would consider the hot glue mod.


@Clayboy: The wag is slight, only noticeable in hover. Can't take it outside now, since it's freezing here. Did short and slow backward flights and pitch pumps indoor, don't see wag. Had the stock align CF blades on first. Wag was there. No matter howsoever small, I just don't wanna live with the wag :'(. I would rather get a dog  ;D
 
Also, the tail kicks in fast left or right at least once within 5 flights

No, I'm in the soft start with no gov mode on the align ESC.

Yes, mebbe a mini V in the flights to come once I get richer :thumbsup:

ok. i am not familiar with 3g and its behaviour , i have only flow v-bar the last 4 years ;D

but i guess it is vibe related, maybe a bad sensor that is over sensetive? or just to much vibes ?

and dont use beastx tape, it is pretty crap, futabas tape or v-bar or spartan tape work the best, atleast on v-bar

Finally, I get to say; Phew!

It's snowing here and roads appear rather skateworthy. Sitting at home and utlising my leave by putting in constructive RC hours I would say.

Smalltalk aside, the tail wag is 98% gone as of now. I packed the 3g sensor unit with more of the BeastX pad pieces quite tight and so far've done 3 hovers after that. The wag is as good as gone now. Yet to notice any tail kicks either(though it maybe a bit early to judge that). Certain that it is the bulls eye that we've hit, I will go ahead and replace the BeastX with hot glue sooner or later. Maybe that will lock the tail in solid. Anyhow, I am happy with how it holds now so much so that I might even give the glue idea a pass.


Time to thank Anwar, Clayboy and Sujju for tips and suggestions that led to this result.

Here's a video..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzF2CaMb2mM


Will post with further updates on whether tail kicks also stand eliminated after a few more flights.

Hmm, once tail kicked right. That's wrong :(

Watch out at 00:08. I got scared a bit and landed like chicken that fancied flying  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BROwY1QlBxA

Gotta feed some glue to the sensors it seems!

Okay done with the hot glue mod. I don't see any improvement over using the BeastX pad stuffing inside. The minor wag that can be ignored is still there.
I'm using Gyro->Spartan thin foam->Spartan metal plate->Spartan thick foam combination in that same order as was before.

What I am not happy is that the tail still kicks once in a blue moon, and blue moons appear more frequently than it should have :'(

Btw, just bot a canomod phantom air brush canopy and fusuno stabilisers for better aesthetics. Hopefully the align gyro falls for the looks and will start behaving  :P
Posting a pic..

Red "hot" ! ;D

I see a car and its radio in the background.The car seems like an on-roader.What are they?

Thanks Anwar Sir :).
Red makes it more visible high up in the air as well I guess.
Need to use a hot blower on one side of the canopy though to expand it a bit and that should stop it from touching the main gear.

@iamahuman:

That's my nissan 350z drifter, have put a video and pics of that in the cars section..
http://www.rcindia.org/cars/post-your-car-pics/msg46232/#msg46232

Just have one for fun..not too much into cars :)
Btw, recently bot a scale 1/10 HPI nissan gtr r35 black n white shell with light buckets installed for this. Haven't posted a pic though 'cos I rather felt like an alien myself in the cars forum :'(.

Hey,no need to feel like an alien.You have to start out.Now that I go back and see my first few posts,I feel like a douche.

So here's the new problem after the hot glue mod. I have ascertained that my swash is perfectly level at mid stick, but the heli has a tendency to go backwards unless I give forward elevator. I even tried overtrimming the elevator so that it leans forward a bit at midstick.
Howsoever Heli wants to fly reverse with a sinking tail.

Thoughts racing in mind that may not sound logical

1. Fiddle with elevator gain
2. Glue disturbed the perpendicularity of sensors in the 3g unit
3. The few grams of hot glue in the sensor disturbed CG, added little bit of weight towards the rear trying to sink the tail down in flight.

Suggestions please..

PS: I have put my disclaimer underlined and in bold. So you can't tease me for that  ;D

Interestingly after the glue mod, I guess the heli's rear has gained a bit of weight. I held the heli by the main rotor head and it is leaning slightly backward now, whereas before the mod, it hung horizontal.

Sounds unbelievable to me, but can a bit of hot glue create much weight difference? Also the sensor is mounted near the CG if not at it.
 Read about lots of people doing this mod, but none complained of something like this.

Am I missing something here?

Guess I should've stuck to the BeastX stuffing :(

Now, if there's a way out, it's probably out of 3g.

Wish someone gifted me an MB or a MiniV on my neighbour's birthday which is tomorrow ;D

Btw, does anyone hold the record of receiving gifts on President's day or is it just the President?

unless u used the most heavy glue ever made i can garantie it is all the bling u just added, move the batterie slightly

Hi there, ok, I flew for quite longer the 500 with 3G FBL.I wanted to sell it after a month as I was desperate in solving the tail wag.But I did not gave up and finally I won!
I did not discover the hot water but the main source for wags are vibrations.Let's say that is a combinations of multiple things but a good 60% is vibrations.
On my 500 I was using a layer of spartan gyro pad, metal plate than thin white spartan foam.On top of that I secured the sensor with some velcro strap.Check the belt tension, need to be quite stiff.HS:run a good 70%throttle.Very important, the smoothness of the tail pitch assembly on the tail shaft.Did you do properly the limit on the unit?
Since I solved the wag I loved the heli and I can tell you that it flew amazing!
Let me know if you need any help!

Chris

chris... welcome to rcindia man...  :).. good to see you here too... 

Ahhhh Doctor!! I always told you that one day we will fly together in India...and of course, free spares right?? :-))

Chris

@Chris: I use the same spartan padding for the gyro in the same order. Also, my 500 is a TT, not tail driven

I am okay with ignoring the very slight wag that's there, but heli is acting a bit tail heavy now after everything(moved the battery also a bit forward). Haven't been getting a lot of time recently to take a closer look at what's wrong. Need time for further investigation.

Btw, I'm not sure it's exactly tail heavy either. On reverse elevator, the heli pulls back quite faster than it moves forward(though the swash is level at midstick).When I hold it up by hand in the air by the head unit, it slightly leans back as well making me assume tail is heavy.