RC India

I bought a q450 frame and fitted it with the following:
D2822/17 motors which turned out to be quite a bit underpowered so overpropped them to 10x6
Turnigy nanotech 2.6Ah
Hobby King 20A ESC 3A UBEC (F20A) ESCs
Hk Multirotor control board v2.1

First I flashed the board with kapteinkuk QuadControl V4.7 but the board simply would not arm. Then I flashed it with XXcontrol_KR_XCopter_v2_5. It could be armed then but none of the calibration methods worked (throttle, stick centering etc). I tried to calibrate the escs individually with the transmitter but they did not go into the programming mode. So I just hooked the escs up with the board and made sure that the gyros were correct. But when I tried to lift off the quad tended to rotate ccw and roll to the left. I had to apply about 30% sub-trim to both the roll and pitch axes to just to able to lift off. I think the culprit is the back right esc or motor(which gets very hot). The other motors just warm up a bit.
I have checked my transmitter with other escs and with the t6a software but everything checks out.. Is there any well documented(clearly explained :P) and used firmware that I can flash my quad with? I am a completete noob and this is my first time flying anything..

Those two things above as a combination screams out that you are asking for trouble.  When you increase prop pitch/dia, you will use up more amps, and if you ESC is not rated for the increased load/current, then funny (and expensive) surprises will follow :(

No no I anticipated that I may have some prob with the motors so I made sure that the escs were upto the task. I have asked around(both on rcgroups and here) and found that these motors draw at max 12A when used with 10inch props. So that is not an issue(The escs remain at room temperature even at full throttle).
I am attaching a pic with the rouge motor circled. After I turn off the the throttle this motor comes to rest immidiately while the others continue spinning.

If you are using this motor, then the initially recommended props are much smaller.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18967__D2822_17_Brushless_Outrunner_1100kv.html

The only reference in the discussion is 12A using a 10x4.5 prop.  You would use even higher current when you use 10x6. Typically people allow a 20% margin on maximum rated current on ESCs, so you are already down to 16A usable on those ESCs.  With a 10x6 prop, it is pretty much sure that you are walking a thin line.

Anyways, this is one angle on the issue. If you had bad bearings on the motor or something like that, then that is an all another issue.  Do you have spares to experiment with ?   One lesson I learnt quickly in working with quads is to order 5 of everything instead of 4 ! :)

No I don't have any spares because I ran out of money :P
I have checked all the motors (out of circuit). they seem identical..
Maybe somehow the brake function got turned on one of the escs..

This is related to the firmware issue. I also faced a similar kind of problem and could rectify it by flashing the board with a custom written firmware. ( Done by one of my friend Sujith ).

Forward me your email id so that I pass you the firmware.

Sai Krishna

Thanks! I have sent you a pm but I need to make sure my hardware is devoid of problems first :P

Email sent. Flash the firmware and check if all the motors are working in sync.

Good luck

Sai Krishna
www.rcbharat.com

A short clip. All I was trying to do is to get it to hover..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gihf4SNcKVQ&feature=plcp

Try using some landing gear because you are landing hard and may damage the bearings of the motors.

Is this your first build?#

Yup, my first build. Since I am used to piloting airboats, my first instinct is to cut the throttle, so the hard landings. I am going to attach some foam to the underside next time.

Well in my view, its either faulty ESC and/or Motor did you try run motor/esc combo which is causing the problem directly connecting to the throttle channel??? What i mean is remove the ESC connection from the board and connect it to the receivers throttle channel and test it?? whether it gives same problem or not.

Other TS steps can be interchanging the problematic motor/esc with others. You dont shift the position but just switch ESC connector on the HK board, then start the board arm it and give some throttle (dont lift it as motors are not in correct position it might cause some damage) then test that motor/esc combo... Let me know how it went

I have tested it bypassing the fc but then I could not compare it with the the other motors.. I will test it again when I get the props. There is no point in running the motors without the prop, is there?
On the other hand, The manual to these escs(F20A) do not have throttle calibration listed. So, if I flash them simonk will i then get throttle calibration?

There is throttle calibration bro.. The first set of beeps A-A-A-A this is for throttle calibration. Dont flash them with simonk cos F20 are so good that they good nice performance without flashing. Keep that as very last option, and yes there is not point in running motors without prop.

In such condition the issue would be either one of the following:

1. ESC/motor combo
2. Only ESC
3. Only Motor
4. The FW

IMO issue with FW is least possible cause the other motors are working fine.

The main problem is that when I want to get into the programming mode(turning tx on with the throttle at high) the esc beeps "A-A-A-A" continuously or it does not beep at all(all four). First I thought that there was something wrong with the Tx but when I checked the throws with T6A software, it was fine(I can program a red brick esc with this tx too). So I think something might be off with this batch of escs..

I did the above with only esc and rx connected.
I am using these: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=15202

Yes these are the ESC which i am using, one of the best for the multirotors....

Thats why I got them :P I will get back to this topic when I get the props. But a warning about the motors that I used:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=18967
I have asked around and it seems most people who have used this motor on 3s(including me) think that 7x4 props do not do this motor justice. Atleast an 8x4 should be used to get any decent performance. I myself ran this on 10x6(Overkill :P). Runs warms at half throttle but no problems so far.

@Lastrites, What's the All-Up-Weight of your Quad? With Battery and without.  
What battery pack are your using?  2S or 3S and what's it's weight.

I use 700 Kv motors which turns 10x4.7 props.  I believe I can go upto 12" props comfortably but never tried it.

You motors are rated at 1100 rpm so you need to keep your quad weight low. (between 600 - 800 gms AUW)

@lastRites

From what I can gather you have more than one problem.
#1 Only one of the motors getting heated up.

When only one motor is getting heated up, it's either a bad motor (check the bearings by rotating the motor with hand - is it spinning as freely as others? Is the protrusion of the shaft which extends a fraction of an mm below the stator touching the frame below it? This is the case with certain motors like dt700s :P ) OR a bad ESC. Did you accidentally change the ESC timing (while calibrating the throttle)? If yes, this is the culprit. Download F20A's manual and use stick combinations to correct it or buy an ESC programmer.

#2 Unwanted drift.

You can control this by using trims on your Tx. Also fiddle with the PIDs on the FC side. Tuning is very important.
Drift is also caused by poorly balanced props, prop adapters and motors. Balancing of these is a MUST for multirotors.


I disagree with (a). :) But (b) is very true.

I wish we had a Perfect Quad! 

A perfect quad is always YET TO BE MADE......! :rofl:

did you guys see the crash I had yesterday:
http://www.vimeo.com/53820248

I'm just returning from that video... sorry about it... reworking must be painful..
Do you suspect the CC3D in anyway? Or just a bad solder joint? Since it seems (from the video) only one or two of the motors stopped during flight because the quad fell down tilted to one side...

believe me I am scratching my head over this.  for the last 2 days I flew it indoors and also outdoors without any issues,  but apparently it seems that flat/pancake motors have some timing issues with simon flashed esc's.  Do a search and you'll find it all over in the Quad space.  Since I use these ECS (F-30) It could have been an issue.  The problem is,,,with every crash happening to me, it's breaking my moral.  Gone are those days when I was roaring with confidence.  Can you imagine I used to fly over rooftops over a radius of over 100 - 200 feet. These days I am soooo scared to fly out of the boundary of my roof top and for good reasons.  I don't think I can rule out the CC3D.  But only continuous tests can reveal what actually happened. 

true, I know simonk has a problem with certain motors. But I didn't hear (read 'know') that pancake motors were one among them. NTM/RcTimer/Equiv 2826 size motors (1000/1200kv) had this problem of timing.
But the latest 09-30-2012 release of simonK fixes this issue.
I guess you bought pre-flashed ESCs from abusemark... when did you buy them? Before september?

Vineet, can you please post me the procedure videos of flashing the ECS's along with what's required (flashing tools/ hardware).  I think I need to sort this out soon. cant sleep until it find out what really went wrong.

Umm, I wonder if any video-tuts exist.. But Dharmik bro's blog rcsci.blogspot.in (http://rcsci.blogspot.in) is apt to do the job. Explanation is clear and upto the point.
You just need the hobbyking/equiv programmer (http://"http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21321__USBasp_AVR_Programming_Device_for_ATMEL_proccessors.html"), and some wires.

EDIT: found this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZsT0agRZMY

Thanks,  I'll have to keep these tools handy now.  and prolly a couple-o spare esc's.  Have to do it secretly without my W__E knowing about it. Have promised not to buy more stuff for some time.

Yeah, you'll also need LazyZero flash tool (http://"http://lazyzero.de/en/modellbau/kkmulticopterflashtool") and USBasp drivers (www.fischl.de/usbasp/)

Dharmik bha's tutorials seem apt.  I'll have to start collecting the $$ now.  Thanks Man!

@lastRites bro i am using F-20A ESCs from past few months. They are really good and as Satya bro said you can use them without flashing. They have so many functions but first 4 A-A-A-A beeps are for throttle range. I saw your video and your quad flies really good. If you are using kk4.7 fw you have to bring yaw pot to zero and throttle stick to the max to enter into the ESC programming mode, one more good function is you can restore everything to the factory defaults. You can reduce I gain to and quad will return to its initial position.

AUW is around 850gms. The escs are not entering the programming mode somehow..

Can you access programming mode with RX only?

No. I will use a different tx rx next time..

Which esc's are you using?  Flashed or non-flahsed?  Try and get  a programming card,  makes your life easier.  
In any case if the problem is with not enough thrust, then I would recommend to get a slightly bigger prop from the existing one of course at the cost of draining the battery faster.  In the game of quads you just have to keep tyring out various combinations to get that perfect flying experience.
Where did you buy those motors from?  If you have imported them it's always a good practice to buy some extra just in case you have a "dead-on-arrival" situation.  If you have bought them from a local hobbyshop take it to them for a test.

All from hobbyking. I am now thinking that the esc is the culprit as I found nothing mechanically wrong with the motor.

Is "lack of enough thrust" your main problem?

It was, but I overproped it to 10x6. All the flying in the video was done at maximum 60% throttle.

so what's the problem u are facing now?

I am grounded at the moment. No props.. I tried with 7x4 props but at full throttle it does not leave the ground. I have noticed that the rouge motor/esc spools up much faster than the other three.

Can you please confirm if One motor + esc combination works fine when you throttle them up.  Do this test for all the 4 motors and see if they all work fine as you wish them to.  Then we can address the next issue.

Seems to. But still cannot program the escs..

I programmed the escs. I changed the motors around. Still the same problem. The Rear-Right motor always spools up MUCH faster(20% more than the others approx). So this might be a software problem after all. I am using XXcontrol_KR_XCopter_v2_9 firmware. I did a lot of reading up on this firmware but am yet to find a solution. I have to apply about a 30% subtrim and full trim to make it take off. Hovering is impossible! :(