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« on: April 26, 2014, 10:44:41 AM »
gauravag
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I had this concern for quite some time  and wanted to share with our group here to see if we can do something about it.

Aerial photography (AP) has now become extremely popular specially with multirotor fliers. We routinely see amazing videos of fliers, from not only India but all across the world.

Many have ventured into this as a progression from their traditional RC hobby but may have come into this as a new entrant, interested for the sole interest in photography and not RC . Many off the shelf products, like DJI, with its Phantom has aggravated this to a much larger extent.
I can say with confidence that those into AP can be grouped in two sections : RC-first and Photography-first interest. The interest part can be hobby or commercial

My concerns here target both of these groups, but the latter group the more.  RC-First fliers would be aware of the traditional flight safety rules, but sometimes just being aware of the rules isnt enough but at least they are aware. The photography first lot may not be even aware of the safety guidelines !

Also those of us who are aware may get carried away, by the superficial so called reliability of their systems . Superficial, i say because if a system works 100 out of 100 times, it cannot be guaranteed as reliable. There could be multiple points of failures which can be triggered by many factors, and many such points may be hidden out from the user unless they present themselves and at that point nothing much can be done, except witness the crash and damage.
The flying equipment we use today is very complicated, has thousands of components, connectors and hundreds of thousands of lines of software code. All it needs to bring down a system is one single problem which may be completely obscured to the user !


See my thread http://www.rcindia.org/radios-and-receivers/futaba-8fg-radio-interesting-problem-solution-and-response-by-futaba/
Where an internal connector issue, complete hidden away from the user, on a reputed brand radio can cause a complete control problem leading to crash and damage/injury to people. I shudder to think what this could have caused had a multirotor been flying over a wedding with hundreds of people ! This problem alone, if presented when the multi rotor was flying, would have resulted in an uncommanded flight leading to a crash, possibly over people, and causing serious injuries. The pilot would have no answer, since none of his 'obvious' actions caused the crash 
Yet the pilot should be termed liable, since his action alone caused the crash - Flying over people, when it is completely against the safety guidelines.

My concerns here are firmly rooted in the ground and I am not speculating something out of the blue. A few months back, I was at a wedding, and saw a multiorotor do aerial photography. It flew over people, many times as low I could feel its prop wash. The flier was more concentrated on getting the 'right shots' than on keeping the model away from people.

I am not against AP. but what i want this forum to do, at the least is to make this thread a sticky and post safety guidelines here, for all current and future members and specifically addressing the new breed of AP oriented fliers.

Truly an appeal to all AP fliers - Please take this very seriously. Rules are not meant to be just posted, read and forgotten. Since no one is enforcing the safety rules on us we should undertake this responsibility ourselves and observe strict regulation in the benefit of our community 

I do sincerely hope that no such incident takes place, but this might not be the case, unless measures are taken by people to understand and observe self regulation.
Commercial interests should never come in way of safety measures , and hope our small community takes heed of this .

Happy flying all !
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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2014, 11:00:32 AM »
gauravag
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I would also like to 'tag' AMAI members to this thread. Was reading the safety rules on their site :
http://amai.in/safety.php

They seem pretty historic, and relate to hobby flying.  Lots of things are not mentioend perhaps because they were not relevant a few years back, or perhaps were implied.

The new breed of multi rotors and AP-first pilots need to made aware of things like :

A. Where to fly and where NOT to fly -
20 km around airports - NEVER to fly.
Over groups of people - NEVER to fly.

Even if getting close up or good shots are paramount - NEVER to fly over people. Please

B. Always have a flight plan before flying

C.  Always have a spotter having a visual reference of the multi copter

D. NOT to fly under any influence of alcohol.

E. LEARN to Manually fly a multi-copter.

F. REMEMBER at all times that GPS, and all its related safety measures ( IOC, RTL etc ) can be lost in a split second. Hundreds of factors affect GPS and I cant list enough incidences have come  across. For the un-initiated, heres one -  solar flares cause a wipe out of GPS signal. I have first hand experience of this.

G. Keep your model ALWAYS in Line of Sight.

H. ALWAYS have a flight plan before flying. Do not fly and then think.

I. MAKE Check-lists. It is easy to forget things which may lead to catastrphc failures, when under commercial pressures.

J. Do Thorough PRE Flight and POST flight inspections. KNow the failure points, critical points on your machine.

K. DO NOT TRUST the Auto pilot features. Even if its the best.  Remember they CAN fail. and when they will, and safety guidelines are not followed, injury will happen.

L. Always have a first aid kit in your flight set. You can carry a zillion equipment, wires and connectors and not a small box with first aid ? When a prop cut happens, it will be essential to stop bleeding.


Can and will list more here today .  
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 11:30:45 AM by gauravag » Logged

 

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« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2014, 04:23:50 PM »
Nithinraj Kotian
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Good write-up gaurav sir  Clap  Hats Off  Hats Off
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« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2014, 07:42:13 PM »
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Multicopter flying over people and that too in a wedding which means lots of people... scares.
Although, it would be a new experience with fun/joy having a 3-idiots helicopter overhead(what people usually call it)at least the ones  those who are not familiar with the multicopters, but it is damn risky flying such machines in public. A small and the slightest mistake could make it fall on people/kids etc hurting so many. There are numerous things internally(on the machine itself) and externally(in the areas surrounding) that could bring it down in seconds.
On a very serious note, this is our duty to follow all the rules and take every important safety measure not only for ourselves but most important for people nearby, before flying.
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« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2014, 01:27:02 AM »
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One example that I came across today.  And it was a $15K model !

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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2014, 08:16:20 AM »
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Dear Gaurav...... the list of safety checks given by you are really comprehensive and absolutely correct... I wish everyone of us followed it in letter and spirit........ After all safety is more important than whatever fun we have flying the machine.....
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2014, 09:39:14 AM »
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Thank you Anwar for making this sticky. It is imperative fliers and photographers understand the 'superficial reliability' that expensive equipment now seem to give false assurance to the users.

First education and then self regulation is very important in these times. As responsible modellors we should put forth the safety word first and foremost. In the last 5 years, RC flying has moved on from only happening in open fields, farms to urban, populated areas .
In these times, self regulation is very important. I can perhaps dedicate an entire thread to the importance of self regulations..


Utkarshg13 . the problem happens with the superficial reliability - thats the one that gives confidence to the user to fly around in unsafe circumstances.  and these are expensive equipments. The one I saw shooting at the wedding, was perhaps more than $5K

Shobhit, Every time, i come across people flying irresponsibly, it hurts me. Just be cause technology is available/accessible to all doesnt mean that we should violate the safety code. Like you, I also wish everyone of us reads, and follows the guidelines in the letter and spirit.

Have a few more points to add, will put them here later today. 
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« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 11:03:37 AM »
gauravag
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Here was one picture posted by students of Bits Pilani Goa
https://www.facebook.com/groups/amai.in/permalink/572136582876364/

I am not against crucifying the flier there - Its more about educating them , and their likes in the first place.

AMA hasnt really done enough to promote safety in the new-gen fliers. I hope through the medium of this forum, we can make it loud and clear to everyone that safety should be foremost concern.


aeromodel.jpg
Re: Safety guidelines for multicopter fliers venturing into aerial photography .
* aeromodel.jpg (8.16 KB, 425x294 - viewed 1350 times.)
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« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2014, 11:15:40 AM »
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The BITS Pilani Goa campus is just next to the airport, even when I flew there in 2010 the fliers didn't really think about the danger the planes can cause. On a side note- they(students) are generally not good fliers either.
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« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2014, 11:18:54 AM »
topalle
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Bad ! Bad!  Bad!

They cannot put a hundred lives or even more at risk while flying their planes.
What if the model plane is sucked into the turbine? A very scary disaster would occur...
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« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2014, 11:21:17 AM »
topalle
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Drones are being used in IPL matches also. God save those cricketers from thos drones.
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« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2014, 11:22:53 AM »
prateek13
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in IPL?
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« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2014, 11:24:54 AM »
gauravag
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Also for the sake of reference want to link my thread / concern here :

http://www.rcindia.org/rc-general-topics/please-stop-calling-model-hobby-airplanes-multirotors-as-uavs-and-drones/

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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2014, 11:25:36 AM »
topalle
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Yes,  RCB coach was learning to fly the drone. I Am not taking about spider cam. I am referring to a multirotor only.
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« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2014, 11:28:55 AM »
prateek13
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Yeah, please stop calling it a drone. Call it a multirotor or plane.
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2014, 11:34:43 AM »
topalle
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Ibnlive called it a drone... Tongue
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« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2014, 11:38:41 AM »
prateek13
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Cause they have no idea what it is Tongue
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« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2014, 05:07:29 PM »
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Very very good post. Really appreciate it Clap Clap Clap
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2014, 12:15:43 AM »
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Don't wanna be poking the hornets nest here, but gauravag sir, that's my aircraft and I had posted that to fb. I was flying my aircraft 20m above the ground. The 737 in question was way higher.
Regards,
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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2014, 07:11:55 AM »
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Good note Gaurav. ... Salute Thumbs Up

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« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2014, 11:04:14 AM »
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Here was one picture posted by students of Bits Pilani Goa
https://www.facebook.com/groups/amai.in/permalink/572136582876364/



Looks like yet another photoshop job.
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« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2014, 11:09:38 AM »
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Hi Aniket

First of all  Hats Off for coming up here and owning to your pic . Very few would have the courage to own things up.

As i said, I am not in favor of solely blaming you for this. Blaming a particular person is not going to help things out.

What needs to be done is that awareness has to be generated. You think the plane was way higher, but do you know the safety regulations restrict flying in the funnel approach areas of an airport as far as 20 km out ?

The question is not of how far the plane was and how safe you think flying is at your field.  The more important fact is - Are you aware of the safety guidelines ? If not, then this thread should be extremely useful to you. If yes, you were aware, then, you should think of the entire community first before your own interests.

In any case, you shouldnt be flying at your 'field' further, or exercise extreme caution when doing so. That airplane in picture was not very far away. I would rate its altitude as 1500ft (400-500m) AGL . The heights can easily be attained by aeromodels flying visually.

Do spread the awareness of safety. specially in todays times.
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« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2014, 11:16:39 AM »
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Here was one picture posted by students of Bits Pilani Goa
https://www.facebook.com/groups/amai.in/permalink/572136582876364/


Looks like yet another photoshop job.


Sushil sir, I wish it was a Photoshop job - unfortunately it aint -

http://f4k3url/TjhXmq

The Bits Pilani Goa campus is bang on the approach line of RWY 26 Goa. Approx 4km out. Airplanes at this point can easily be less than 1500 ft alt at this point.

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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2014, 12:56:57 PM »
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I believe and accept what you have said regarding the proximity to the airport, etc.

But do look closely at the perspective. The full size plane has been shot with a long focal length lens and is therefore fuzzy, likely due to atmospheric haze, whereas the model is relatively clear. I am an avid photographer and you are one too. It just doesn't look right to me, more so if the model was even 500' high. Hence my comment.

You may well be right. Any which way, I fully endorse the rest of your views/comments.

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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2014, 03:21:22 PM »
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That photo is NOT a photo shopped image.. Gauravag sir, that's not my field.. I was flying at the bits pilani contest called quark. I am not a student of bits pilani too Tongue
I am fully aware of the rules of flying in proximity to airports and other areas.

Regards
Aniket
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2014, 04:02:30 PM »
gauravag
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No problem Aniket dear - The whole point of this thread was not about pointing finger at one person.
It was more about people to be reminded about safety and their responsibility towards the hobby.

Each one of us has to undertake self regulation and stick to safety precautions voluntarily.

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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2014, 11:38:16 PM »
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To Add to Gauravag,

Crash is inevitable in the world of RC, however we can take some steps to avoid disasters in case of crash.

1. Use of Plastic propellers only while flying above people. CF props/wooden props can cause much damage and are hard to break off than plastic ones.

2. Reduce the AUW of the craft to the best extent possible. a 2kg craft will certainly be unstable than a 600gms craft for the same set of electronics and can cause         less damage during crash.

3. If you feel there is something wrong on that particular day like heavy wind, some radio interference, hue, fog, less visiblity etc abort the flight plan. sitting a day without using a transmitter feels much comfortable than sitting behind bars!!!

4. Last, if you feel your craft becomes unstable/about to crash try directing it to a nearest open ground possible and try landing/crashing it(whichever is possible) instead of trying to save the craft and keeping up in the air.

Happy flying.

Ashok.P
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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2014, 08:18:54 AM »
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+1 to what Ashok has said above Thumbs Up
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« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2014, 10:30:54 AM »
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+1 to Ashok
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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2014, 04:15:54 AM »
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I belong to the category of photographers first (or videographer rather). I have recently started flying a DJI phantom and found this thread useful. But beyond the safety checklist mentioned here, where can one read up the local Indian laws and regulations that apply to flying RC multi-rotors like DJI Phantom (with or without a camera)? Anyone can help with that? Tried searching elsewhere in the forum, but could not find any note on this.
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« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2014, 06:56:28 AM »
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I took this from here.
http://amai.in/rcflypro.php

this is a guideline for flying a powered model airplane and may well apply for multicopters too.
In addition to this , all safety procedure to prevent an accident and to minimize the magnitude of the accident should be taken care of.

Ashok.P
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« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2014, 07:00:21 AM »
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Thanks for sharing these guidelines Ashok. However, what I wanted to know was, if one follows these guidelines, there is no other law / regulation / permission needed to fly a multi-rotor?
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« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2014, 08:47:49 AM »
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This information is from one of my friend in cine field.
If you are flying to take pictures/video,

1. you should have a valid AMAI licence
2. some sort of approval that the craft is completely capable.
3. letter of permission from the commissioner of police(COP) indicating the place of flying and date of flying. ie, if you want to take a picture of another location, you have to obtain permission another time!!

this is all that i know. there may be more. for general rc flying these are not required.
Experienced people can pitch in please, as my knowledge is limited about this.

Ashok.P
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« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2014, 10:06:28 AM »
avatsa
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Thank you so much Ashok. Appreciate your time.  Hats Off With such set of rules though, I am more inclined to break them because I don't see myself going to the Commissioner's office to get a permission to fly a DJI phantom! Sounds unreasonable! I do believe rash drivers on the road are so much more dangerous than a DJI with a gopro flying in the air! Hope to see these policies become simpler in the future! May be governments may want to come up with clearly listed no-flying zones so that for all other areas, hobbyists are allowed to fly and film!
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« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2014, 03:57:01 PM »
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Anwar sir I saw that man who lost his 15k multirotor in Peru was using Dji he could have selected hover mode or return to launch mode .... This also concludes that we should not panic if something wrong does happen because if we keep calm than we can handle a worse case scenario in a better manner isn't it ??
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« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2015, 04:10:10 PM »
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 Hats Off Hats Off
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« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2015, 02:37:19 PM »
medicineman1987
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Anwar sir I saw that man who lost his 15k multirotor in Peru was using Dji he could have selected hover mode or return to launch mode .... This also concludes that we should not panic if something wrong does happen because if we keep calm than we can handle a worse case scenario in a better manner isn't it ??

I saw that video too..  He mentions that he took off before a GPS lock so he couldnt activate RTH. Turns out that one of the gimbals on his spektrum tx malfunctioned causing the crash.
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