RC India

All,
Thought about starting a new thread. In the thread about brand comparison on the radios, Saju did mention the he was into electric power. I read in some other thread something similar on Chan. So the question is that are these electric motors capable of taking the 2-3 kg load of a standard model? So far all I thought was that electric could only be used by foam based planes.

You should spend some time reading the Electric Power and Electric Planes boards here  ;)

In short, Lithium Polymer (lipo) batteries and brushless motors have made electrics possible, preferable and in many cases very affordable for almost any class of airplanes these days.  There is even a thread about a fully electric plane that just broke a world record for speed, carrying a real pilot !

Hi Anwar,
Saw a couple of posts but they seem to contradict you opion on being cheaper than nitro. So do we or can we have some comparison here on the forum? I mean as a beginer I was thinking of starting with a .4 -.5 nitro. Would indeed be interested to know about the cost factor for both.

Regards
Pankaj

The glow versus electric debate is always a fun topic  :P

Please consider the following.

1: Electric is really affordable and preferred at the smaller sizes.

2: As size increases, glow becomes more advantageous.

3: The .4 or .5 size is somewhere in the middle, and you can go either way.

4: With electric, you pay the power costs upfront; with glow (especially with nitro added), you spread the costs.

5: Electric is much easier to acquire and maintain.  Methanol (and nitro) are not easy to find in many parts of our beloved nation, and banned in some states. 

Regarding cost, I would prefer not to comment, as there are people here who can provide that information with much more accuracy. 

Watching this hobby/industry for a little while now, it seems like electric has almost caught up with glow; and the future is tilting towards electric (with new advances in battery technologies).  There has not been much innovation at all in the glow arena for a while now. 

Gassers are an easy way out of fuel troubles, if you want to mess with its side-effects (tuning issues etc).

I believe first learn to fly and then move up to learning other types of flying. Get a small 3ch plane and learn flying, get past that and move to 4 ch planes. Once you are thru with these move on to what ever seems interesting in flying. Learn with a model that doesn't need a huge ground to fly, crashes and transforms to matchsticks. Something that will crash and can be picked up and flown again. Keep all costs, except that of the radio down. Get a good (not fancy) radio + foam model and learn to fly. Keep crashing till you are tired, then start flying  ;D

You Have quite a few beginners options which are as below :
Mr MOSS Glider : Rs 3500/-
GWS SLOW Stick : Rs 6200/-
Multiplex Easy Star : Rs 11,200/-
Multiplex Easy Cub OR Mini Mag  : Rs 14,400/-
Multiplex Twin Star : Rs 18,000/-

Please note the multiplex planes are top of the line in terms of Beginners electrics  and made from Elapor which is close to unbreakable .

Saju has  a Slow Stick while I have the easy cub and twins star .

The advantages of electric  especially the Multiplex range is they due to their sturdy construction they can  be repeatedly fly despite crashes and so give higher in the Air Stick time rather than more time on the repair bench.
Nitro  Balsa planes require you to have an instructor  and  would require more repairs than flying.
damages if any to electrics is also low as they are lighter set ups.

Sai

sai

Well, I agree with Anwar in respect that the argument is funny.... 8)

I also Agree with Sai Sir that Electrics are easy to fly , BUT if you know how to fly it in the first place  ;D

The equation given by Anwar that electrics are cheaper if the model is small, It is right.

In the same vain can any body say if Petrol is better or Methanol+castor is better...

I guess for Giant scale Petrol is better and economic than Methanol+castor Oil. :-\

Sai sir,
I would differ with you in one opinion,
Electrics are now ay lighter than an IC powered version. If you were to take two similar models and equip them similalrly except for the power plant, IC would tyurn out to be much lighter. 

We are not talking Apple to apple here , we are talking of beginners options  available in both cases.

A glow would be better in my opinion.....
because ,
1) you can run on full throttle for longer whereas in electric you might burn you motor , puff your Li-po or etc
2) you can fly all day long with one charge

Sai,

Bringing up this topic again....

a) Can we get a list of equipement that is need to for electric power? brushless motor, esc, lipo - what else? I was looking at 4120/6 and 2826/6, so was trying to figure out the equipment and cost for powering up the plane...

b) do we have any thread in the forum that does a glow to electric conversion?

Pankaj

Pankaj ,
I normally split the planes requirement into 2 major heads :

1) Power System : electric : Motor , ESC , Prop , Battery , Charger
2) Control system.: Servos , Receiver , Transmitter

In case of electrics one of the critical factors is the Power ( thrust  to weight ratio ) I would normally keep it at around 1.3-1.5 : 1 to fly well. so normally you try to keep the denominator as low as possible to achieve good results there is not much point adding to it and then adding on the numerator to get it right.

In my opinion the equation is something like this :
    Glow engine size                       Eq Motor
1) 0.15                                        2217 or 2820
2) 0.25                                        2820 or 2826
3) 0.32                                        2826
4) 0.46 ~ 0.50                              3520
5) 0.55 ~ 0. 61                             4120
6) 0.61 ~ 0.91                              4130

The ESC and Battery depend on the Ampere requirement of the Motor .
This is a great place to get info on Glow to Electric conversions :
http://www.rcgroups.com/glow-to-electric-conversions-247/

I suppose every conceivable type of plane is listed here .
This was of great help to me when I did my first conversion of the PT 60 and Tiger 60.

I have also converted a Hanger 9 Alfa trainer and Hobbico Hobbistar 60 into electric with a 4130/6 T.

I normally don't go for direct  4 S 5 S and 6 S Batteries . I normally use 2 S and 3 S in series to achieve these voltages .

Sai
rgds
sai

Sai,

So, technically, it is possible to convert all nitros into electric..... great (if we can just add some sort of sound module to make it sound like a nitro.... man!!! love the sound).

Any way, good conversion chart... now please also publish the battery (single or parellel/series) along with esc ratings. Ideally your shop should list these - like if I view a motor, you could say this is for weight upto xx gms for normal flying and yy for for 3D stuff ; also recommended is ESC and Battery combination should be listed. It would help a lot....

So for the 4120 or 3520 motors, I would like to know about the esc/battery models that you have listed in your shop....

Pankaj

Yes any nitro can be converted to electric .
for large conversions there are no standard set ups they all have to be custom chosen depending of the type of flying the model and the weight , the reason is that for the same engine size there could be some models which are heavier in build and some lighter , for the same type of flying .
I am  not a great fan of engine noise but surely hate  cleaning up the muck and grime on the model after  a  few  hours of flying  and also  stripping down the model after a year sanding off the accumulated grime and recovering .
I find electrics to be great plug and play type of technology.
sai

Sai,

You missed out the second part....

I was also trying to determine the ESC and battery I need for for lets say 4120 motor.... the specs say it draws 26-45A peak current. So I guess 60 Amp ESC is needed - correct?

Then on the battery front, the specs say 4-6 lippo.... now this I need some info on what does this mean and which models of battey would work. Your store has loads of them..

Pankaj

Pankaj

Why don't you try Webocalc_1.05. This site can help you do all the calculations in terms of selection of your motor, esc, battery, prop etc. depending on how you want the model to fly assuming you know the data of the model like auw (all-up-weight), wing chord, wing area etc. You can also download the program and it is free. This way you can have answers to most of your questions regarding sizing at your finger tips

website is : http://adamone.rchomepage.com/

Saju

Saju,

Thanks for the link, but went above my head....  >:(

Anyway, what I was trying to get at is that for a noob, I had fixed up a .4 to .5 glow range. Usually when I am scanning for an ARF, we get ARF for glows and there it is mentioned that this model is good for .4 or .6 engine. I was wanting to take such an ARF and try an see what is needed from an electric power point of view. so was actually looking for some reference range to begin with.

I would liket to think, that most people would like to start with some thumb rule in mind and then as and then slowly get into more knowledgable areas once the comfort level goes up.

Pankaj

Pankaj

See this link on this site: http://www.rcindia.org/electric-power/amp-rating-and-motor-size/

It also gives some useful pdf files which talk of conversion from glow to electric. I am re-attaching the same here for your benefit. Also the discussion at this  blog could be useful.

IF you have any further doubts please dont fail to ask


Saju

Pankaj ,
I would personally recommend a Multiplex plane like the Easy CUB , TWIN STAR or  MENTOR as the 1st plane to start with , as they are made of a tough material called Elapor  which is very crash resistant.
These are  electric planes  so not conversions though.
You can read review of them at these links :

Mentor :
http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=1062

Twin star :
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413667

One of the major advantages of these planes is they give you a lot of air time rather than repairing .

I would suggest you have a serious look at them .

I am suggesting these  as you are considering a Glow to electric conversion hence budget wise they would be around the same level , being German Kits they are not the cheaper one around , but will last a long time.

Just to give you an example this Sunday we sent the twin star up with a 4300 mah battery and she was flying for around 45 mins + on the same battery  and was flown by 5 of us passing on the Tx to each other. This was despite it being very very gusty and windy. We finally got bored and landed it for the 4th time during this time period so we took off 4 times and landed 4 time on the same battery with no major loss of power , the battery was a Zippy I have been using for the past 2 years.

sai

The mentor is not listed in your site so don't know about the price.....

Anyway, the Elapor planes seem to significantly increase the entry prices. I was wanting to try basic nitro based ARF and then just put a electric motor rather than nitro....

Pankaj

Pankaj ,
The Airframe  price may be higher but the overall set up will still be OK as they use smaller set ups being lighter .
In the case of  a Glow to electric conversion the airframe might be cheaper but the set up would be more expensive as they need heavier motors and batteries apart from repair costs as a beginner to Balsa . They are built  heavier with more reinforcement considering the engine vibrations .

I am speaking from experience since I have traveled down this road . My first electric plane was these :
Nov 2007 http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=693687&page=11&highlight=PT+60+electric+conversion
April 2008 :
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=392265

On hind site if I had known at that time about elapor planes I am not sure I would have gone down that road , not to say that it was a mistake I learnt a lot as far as electrics go handling big systems and the tiger 60 really enhanced Venkat's confidence to fly in any kind of wind.

Models like the Mentor , Twin Star are against advance order and are normally delivered in around 10 days time from Booking .

Sai

After seeing Santhosh's collection of multiplex planes, I have to admit they look like they are built to last.  Will know more hopefully on Saturday, when we are planning to maiden some of them.

BTW, what is the recommended method for fixing cracks for them ?  Hot glue OR med/thick CA + activator ?

Hot Glue Or CA what ever suits you no issues only if you use CA check it on a small portion just in case  , you may find it a bit hard to crack it though  ;D ;D

Frankly Anwar before I actually experienced my 1st Multiplex  Easy Cub and Chan's Easy Star I was also very skeptical about the price  but after that I must admit I am a big fan of German Engineering they are a class apart .
No wonder BMW, MERC, Porshe , VW and Audi are all German .

Saju and me fixed the shattered  front end of the acromaster using hot glue it is back to rock solid in around 45 mins of repairs  .It was a crash similar to my BALSA Seduction which was a write off , the motor mount was shattered in this crash

Sai

Pankaj ,
Just to give you an Idea :

Typically a balsa 0.46 eq. will require you to us  at least a 3520 + 80 amp ESC + 5-6 S Lipo  or possibly a 4120

For a Mentor  you can use a 2820 or at best a 2826 on 3 or 4 S with a 40 amp ESC  so it kind of evens out .

sai

OK, but one must be able to see them listed in the shop along with a price tag for adance order to be placed  :) :) :)

Pankaj

Dear All

I think I will re-start this topic on the debate Glow vs Electric, on the suggestions of AnwarSab

Well, it is all your perspective and how you decide and your circumstances. But, it is important to understand the truths about both systems of powering and decide for yourself.

Let me try to explain as simply as possible....

Electrics are the future, because there is a lot of enthusiasm in its development all over the world. The electric systems like the LIPO battery for example is seeing advancement in its manufacture, safety, use and capacities by leaps and bounds. Today you can get a LIPO 11.1v (3cell with a max volt of 12.4v) which can give a burst current of 82amps for a short duration and continuous current rating of 2.6amps, in a package weighing as little as 150gms. Never-the-less, one has to be cautious about how one does the charging of such a battery and how one uses it. This doesnt mean that the fuel power is not dangerous... There are two types of fuel...Petrol type 4stroke engines and Glow type 4 stroke and 2stroke engines. The glow fuel is costly and is banned in certain states. So one has to resort to smuggling at times.
Moreover, the exhaust from the engine has to be managed so that it does not damage (chemically eat the structure of the plane, especially balsa wood). The plane requires a lot of care after the flight. The electronics kept inside, if heated (some transistor or chip getting hot)can be another nuisance to cool with exhaust gases flying all around.
Moreover, there is an art and skill to be learnt in starting and fine-tuning an engine. This can at times make a beginner go crazy and highly dependant on an expert RC enthusiast. I used to start my engines by hand... takes quite a toll on the skin of my fingers..and the chances of getting a dangerous cut if one is not too careful is quite high. When comparing an electric motor... either it works at its best or it does not start at all. Rarely does one have to have skill in tuning the motor... leaving a lot of opportunities for the beginner to concentrate more on the flying.
The size of the electric motor makes it possible to have smaller and lighter planes, work with foam, balsa or other types of material which is easily available.

But all said and done one does not have the same sound as an engine with electrics. Electrics are very quiet. Starting an engine in a flat can be very disturbing to the rest of the residents and neighbours. A new engine requires to be run in under certain conditions.

As to repair from crashes... It really comes down to whether you use foam, corroplast or balsa. Corroplast is the most durable but heavier than the other two. Foam is never used with fuelled power systems because, the exhaust eats into it. In any case, repairing an electric is easier because it is lighter and the damage is less destructive

The last but not the least... The cost of equipment. Today, a beginner in electric can start off with about 7k to 8k with a good trainer like the Slow Stick or about 10k to 12k with something like the Easy Star. Compared to the fuelled variety which is about 25k minimum

Some questions with their answers:

a. Will the LIPO battery bulge if not used for a week ?
There is no fear of the LIPO battery bulging if it is not used for a few weeks...  I have an Easy Star for which I have two batteries ready to use every weekend. Most times with one charge on 1 battery I get more than 1 hour of flight. So the second one is not used for about 3 weeks. After 3 weeks I rotate the batteries.

b. Are Electrics susceptible to shaft bending, esc burning etc. and is the repair cost very high?
If you use a pusher type, the propeller does not get hurt at all. In the case of my Slow stick, I have yet to get a bent shaft ( the trick is to have a short shaft) inspite of inumerable crashes. I have broken props but not one bent shaft. As for ESC or motor burning... I have yet to experience that even after 2 years of regular flying every week-end.

I would suggest other experienced readers to further add to this FAQ.
Anwarsab, seriously, why dont you start a FAQ for this debate... It would be worth it




Best of luck

M.P.Saju

The content of the post is a very good summary of this issue, hence the request :)

I've tried everything other than jumping out of a plane, but nothing gives you an adrenaline rush like flying a glow powered plane, I know its a lot of hard work but then, thats what pays off, the sweet roar of the engine, this mist of the fuel and the beastful attitude that jolts the controls .... Glow Glow Glow.....electrics are too slow.....

Gas is just as fun ;)  In fact, most people on our field seem to like the sound of gas better to glow.

And if you are an electric flier who wants to cheat (or overcome with nostalgia), this helps !

http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9031

To M.P.Saju

Sir, which battery you are useing it gives you 1 hour of flight and also which type of charger you are useing .

Rajesh rao

Ha ha.. Love the sound unit idea!

Dear Rajesh

I fly an Easystar by Multiplex which is an pusher electric Glider. Once I go up in the air, I climb to quite a height something like 100m to 150m and then glide around the place till I  pickup a near by thermal. I use a 2200mah 3S LIPO battery and a 2600mah 3s LIPO. One full charge of the battery gives me easily about 1 hr of airtime with lots of room to spare. I use the batterries alternating them every 3 weekends. I use a balancing charger everytime and do not charge above the nominal current rating of the battery. I also had a Slow-Stick, which I used to fly with one of the batterries. But I had a nasty crash once when I lost too much power and the plane almost got lost and landed above a Go-down roof. I managed to recover the same, but then it had suffered an almost irrepairable damage to the wing (it tore up). Since then it has been grounded.
I try to take good care of my batteries

Saju

If I was to compare I  can remember  the burst of power  on my Electric Tiger 60 and the plane getting air borne in less than 5 ft .

Compared to  the power of the 4130/6 Motor  on 22.2V 6 S  power  the OS 61 fx  was  nothing .

If you want real adrenelin rush  try the TT Imagine 50 or any 60 size plane on a 4130 motor , that is instant power  ;) :o

Well I have  done a few 60 size electric conversions as that is where I started my electric flying from :

1) Great Planes PT 60 : 4130/6  and 22.2V Lipo
2) Hobbico Hobby star  :  same set up
3) hanger 9 Alpha trainer : same set up
4) Pheonix Tiger 60   : Same set up
5) Thunder tiger Imagine 50 : 4120/6  same 22.2V

Sound may be an issue but power  of the electrics  is awesome .

With  energy conversion at around 85 to 90 %  these smaller motors  are a treat.
Sai

Dear Saju

Very very thanks for information

Rajesh rao

Divay,
Thats a nice one
I will modify it slightly to
"Glow! glow! glow! 'lectrics are soooooo slow"

Glow power gives the feeling and presence when flying compared to electrics, personally I don’t like electrics its more of TOY here I am referring to both Heli’s and planes.

Yogesh bhai - Have you tried flying something like the Trex 600 electric heli (or the new Trex 700 electric) ?  It has every bit of the same "oomph" as the nitro ones.

Santhosh has one, hopefully we will be flying it on the 26th.

May be we should have a separate glow-versus-gas thread too.  Again, with smaller and smaller gas engines coming out, glow seems to be becoming more and more of a money eater only (in terms of cost of fuel).

Well, we have one... http://www.rcindia.org/fuel-and-engines/gas-vs-nitro/

But it does not seem to consider the availability of small gas engines (like the 15cc ones).

i have been using electrics on all my helis from the hobbywing ones to turnigy to scorpion to the high end motors like the Neu, they are all just fantastic and the power is great "for my style of flying"... tried a nitro panthera once but moved back to electric as they are clean and silent.
i reckon elecric would be the way forward for this hobby...

Seeing fumes coming out of a model is a whole another dimension ;)  It is something "money can't buy" in electrics :giggle:

For me electrics will mean more flight time.
I have been flying my OS 46 powered SPAD for more than a year now and most of the time i return from the field early with a broken plane. Yes i am a bad pilot!! But now i am switching to electrics just because i need more "flight time".

Yes you can! it is very easy in electrics (and very costly too)
 >:D

It is all about perspective :giggle:

a toy with double the power compare to glow

well I have seen an easystar fly faster and totally dominating a screaming 40 size plane. Ask any one from pancard club.

An easy star and an average 40 size glow is not an apple to apple comparision.
if you really want to, take two models of same make and weight, power one with glow, and other with same power electrics.Run them out flat in a straight line and measure the speed.
Lets talk thereafter.

Thats the point, the fact that a park flyer running a tinny little in-runner on a 5 inch prop was faster than an shiny 40 size glow plane is just amazing. I can only imagine what would happen if we put apple against apple ;D

I can only imagine what would happen if we put apple against apple

TWO original sins - morning and EVE? ;D

Put an race tuned glow engine of .10 size with a single blade 5 inch prop on same size pylon racer and then lets talk apples :giggle:

I guess it is the same on planes as helikopters. a well tuned 90 glow about 3.5-4 hk. elektric 7-8 hk and that is if u r very good tuning a nitro. elektric same every day

Electric is the future. All your glow engines and accessories will go in trash(obsolete) pretty soon. switch before its too late.

Thanks for the advice crazy pilot. I would trash my ic engines the day Aviation industry starts using electric powered, aircrafts to transport people (and yes I am aware of one off experimental electric powered aircrafts).
I do not think I would need to trash my IC engines in my lifetime atleast. The next generation may pick thier choices though.
 

I think CrazyPilot's point (put in milder terms ;D ) is that nitro engines may slowly suffer the fate similar to what happened to Mhz radios when 2.4Ghz became common. 

But for the 25% of people who fly .90 size or higher, conversion to electric will take a long long time (especially on the 50cc and higher ranges).  And that conversion would never be complete (or near-complete).

as long as it is a motor interest nitro will still b there,no matter how good and cheep batteries get,after all we are hobbyist and the grate thing is that we like different things

i like electric not only because it is superior in performance, more for me a practical thing and travel alot and in eu i can not just go and fly at a field   with a glow heli, then i get busted and get a grate fine. i would like to have a nitro as a former top fuel mechanic but i cant stand the noise of nitro model engines
but i can c new BIG helis that is coming with not even a option of glow. it would just not work for competitive 3d flight

By former Top Fuel mechanic,do you mean a mechanic who worked on Top Fuel dragsters?

no top fuel bikes. or super twin they called it in Europe . the class for max 2 cylinders.
this was 1 of our compeditors but he is a good friend and I made some some of the chassi parts for it.
www.karlingracing.com