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« on: July 21, 2009, 12:01:48 PM »
PankajC
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All,
Thought about starting a new thread. In the thread about brand comparison on the radios, Saju did mention the he was into electric power. I read in some other thread something similar on Chan. So the question is that are these electric motors capable of taking the 2-3 kg load of a standard model? So far all I thought was that electric could only be used by foam based planes.
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2009, 12:12:10 PM »
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You should spend some time reading the Electric Power and Electric Planes boards here  Wink

In short, Lithium Polymer (lipo) batteries and brushless motors have made electrics possible, preferable and in many cases very affordable for almost any class of airplanes these days.  There is even a thread about a fully electric plane that just broke a world record for speed, carrying a real pilot !
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2009, 12:50:16 PM »
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Hi Anwar,
Saw a couple of posts but they seem to contradict you opion on being cheaper than nitro. So do we or can we have some comparison here on the forum? I mean as a beginer I was thinking of starting with a .4 -.5 nitro. Would indeed be interested to know about the cost factor for both.

Regards
Pankaj
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2009, 01:04:49 PM »
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The glow versus electric debate is always a fun topic  Tongue

Please consider the following.

1: Electric is really affordable and preferred at the smaller sizes.

2: As size increases, glow becomes more advantageous.

3: The .4 or .5 size is somewhere in the middle, and you can go either way.

4: With electric, you pay the power costs upfront; with glow (especially with nitro added), you spread the costs.

5: Electric is much easier to acquire and maintain.  Methanol (and nitro) are not easy to find in many parts of our beloved nation, and banned in some states. 

Regarding cost, I would prefer not to comment, as there are people here who can provide that information with much more accuracy. 

Watching this hobby/industry for a little while now, it seems like electric has almost caught up with glow; and the future is tilting towards electric (with new advances in battery technologies).  There has not been much innovation at all in the glow arena for a while now. 

Gassers are an easy way out of fuel troubles, if you want to mess with its side-effects (tuning issues etc).
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 01:07:56 PM »
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I believe first learn to fly and then move up to learning other types of flying. Get a small 3ch plane and learn flying, get past that and move to 4 ch planes. Once you are thru with these move on to what ever seems interesting in flying. Learn with a model that doesn't need a huge ground to fly, crashes and transforms to matchsticks. Something that will crash and can be picked up and flown again. Keep all costs, except that of the radio down. Get a good (not fancy) radio + foam model and learn to fly. Keep crashing till you are tired, then start flying  Grin
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 01:09:10 PM »
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Hi Anwar,
Saw a couple of posts but they seem to contradict you opion on being cheaper than nitro. So do we or can we have some comparison here on the forum? I mean as a beginer I was thinking of starting with a .4 -.5 nitro. Would indeed be interested to know about the cost factor for both.

Regards
Pankaj


You Have quite a few beginners options which are as below :
Mr MOSS Glider : Rs 3500/-
GWS SLOW Stick : Rs 6200/-
Multiplex Easy Star : Rs 11,200/-
Multiplex Easy Cub OR Mini Mag  : Rs 14,400/-
Multiplex Twin Star : Rs 18,000/-

Please note the multiplex planes are top of the line in terms of Beginners electrics  and made from Elapor which is close to unbreakable .

Saju has  a Slow Stick while I have the easy cub and twins star .

The advantages of electric  especially the Multiplex range is they due to their sturdy construction they can  be repeatedly fly despite crashes and so give higher in the Air Stick time rather than more time on the repair bench.
Nitro  Balsa planes require you to have an instructor  and  would require more repairs than flying.
damages if any to electrics is also low as they are lighter set ups.

Sai

sai
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 09:52:43 PM »
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Well, I agree with Anwar in respect that the argument is funny.... Cool

I also Agree with Sai Sir that Electrics are easy to fly , BUT if you know how to fly it in the first place  Grin

The equation given by Anwar that electrics are cheaper if the model is small, It is right.

In the same vain can any body say if Petrol is better or Methanol+castor is better...

I guess for Giant scale Petrol is better and economic than Methanol+castor Oil. Undecided

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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2009, 10:23:18 PM »
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Sai sir,
I would differ with you in one opinion,
Electrics are now ay lighter than an IC powered version. If you were to take two similar models and equip them similalrly except for the power plant, IC would tyurn out to be much lighter. 
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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 07:45:47 AM »
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We are not talking Apple to apple here , we are talking of beginners options  available in both cases.
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 07:27:57 PM »
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A glow would be better in my opinion.....
because ,
1) you can run on full throttle for longer whereas in electric you might burn you motor , puff your Li-po or etc
2) you can fly all day long with one charge
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« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2009, 02:32:40 PM »
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Sai,

Bringing up this topic again....

a) Can we get a list of equipement that is need to for electric power? brushless motor, esc, lipo - what else? I was looking at 4120/6 and 2826/6, so was trying to figure out the equipment and cost for powering up the plane...

b) do we have any thread in the forum that does a glow to electric conversion?

Pankaj
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« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2009, 03:10:14 PM »
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Pankaj ,
I normally split the planes requirement into 2 major heads :

1) Power System : electric : Motor , ESC , Prop , Battery , Charger
2) Control system.: Servos , Receiver , Transmitter

In case of electrics one of the critical factors is the Power ( thrust  to weight ratio ) I would normally keep it at around 1.3-1.5 : 1 to fly well. so normally you try to keep the denominator as low as possible to achieve good results there is not much point adding to it and then adding on the numerator to get it right.

In my opinion the equation is something like this :
    Glow engine size                       Eq Motor
1) 0.15                                        2217 or 2820
2) 0.25                                        2820 or 2826
3) 0.32                                        2826
4) 0.46 ~ 0.50                              3520
5) 0.55 ~ 0. 61                             4120
6) 0.61 ~ 0.91                              4130

The ESC and Battery depend on the Ampere requirement of the Motor .
This is a great place to get info on Glow to Electric conversions :
http://www.rcgroups.com/glow-to-electric-conversions-247/

I suppose every conceivable type of plane is listed here .
This was of great help to me when I did my first conversion of the PT 60 and Tiger 60.

I have also converted a Hanger 9 Alfa trainer and Hobbico Hobbistar 60 into electric with a 4130/6 T.

I normally don't go for direct  4 S 5 S and 6 S Batteries . I normally use 2 S and 3 S in series to achieve these voltages .

Sai
rgds
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« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 03:52:37 PM »
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Sai,

So, technically, it is possible to convert all nitros into electric..... great (if we can just add some sort of sound module to make it sound like a nitro.... man!!! love the sound).

Any way, good conversion chart... now please also publish the battery (single or parellel/series) along with esc ratings. Ideally your shop should list these - like if I view a motor, you could say this is for weight upto xx gms for normal flying and yy for for 3D stuff ; also recommended is ESC and Battery combination should be listed. It would help a lot....

So for the 4120 or 3520 motors, I would like to know about the esc/battery models that you have listed in your shop....

Pankaj
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« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2009, 04:18:17 PM »
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Yes any nitro can be converted to electric .
for large conversions there are no standard set ups they all have to be custom chosen depending of the type of flying the model and the weight , the reason is that for the same engine size there could be some models which are heavier in build and some lighter , for the same type of flying .
I am  not a great fan of engine noise but surely hate  cleaning up the muck and grime on the model after  a  few  hours of flying  and also  stripping down the model after a year sanding off the accumulated grime and recovering .
I find electrics to be great plug and play type of technology.
sai
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2009, 04:35:27 PM »
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Sai,

You missed out the second part....

I was also trying to determine the ESC and battery I need for for lets say 4120 motor.... the specs say it draws 26-45A peak current. So I guess 60 Amp ESC is needed - correct?

Then on the battery front, the specs say 4-6 lippo.... now this I need some info on what does this mean and which models of battey would work. Your store has loads of them..

Pankaj
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2009, 04:53:24 PM »
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Pankaj

Why don't you try Webocalc_1.05. This site can help you do all the calculations in terms of selection of your motor, esc, battery, prop etc. depending on how you want the model to fly assuming you know the data of the model like auw (all-up-weight), wing chord, wing area etc. You can also download the program and it is free. This way you can have answers to most of your questions regarding sizing at your finger tips

website is : http://adamone.rchomepage.com/

Saju
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2009, 06:02:09 PM »
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Saju,

Thanks for the link, but went above my head....  Angry

Anyway, what I was trying to get at is that for a noob, I had fixed up a .4 to .5 glow range. Usually when I am scanning for an ARF, we get ARF for glows and there it is mentioned that this model is good for .4 or .6 engine. I was wanting to take such an ARF and try an see what is needed from an electric power point of view. so was actually looking for some reference range to begin with.

I would liket to think, that most people would like to start with some thumb rule in mind and then as and then slowly get into more knowledgable areas once the comfort level goes up.

Pankaj
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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2009, 08:27:23 PM »
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Pankaj

See this link on this site: http://www.rcindia.org/electric-power/amp-rating-and-motor-size/

It also gives some useful pdf files which talk of conversion from glow to electric. I am re-attaching the same here for your benefit. Also the discussion at this  blog could be useful.

IF you have any further doubts please dont fail to ask


Saju

* glow to electric conversion.pdf (80.25 KB - downloaded 891 times.)
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2009, 09:04:33 PM »
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Pankaj ,
I would personally recommend a Multiplex plane like the Easy CUB , TWIN STAR or  MENTOR as the 1st plane to start with , as they are made of a tough material called Elapor  which is very crash resistant.
These are  electric planes  so not conversions though.
You can read review of them at these links :

Mentor :
http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=1062

Twin star :
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413667

One of the major advantages of these planes is they give you a lot of air time rather than repairing .

I would suggest you have a serious look at them .

I am suggesting these  as you are considering a Glow to electric conversion hence budget wise they would be around the same level , being German Kits they are not the cheaper one around , but will last a long time.

Just to give you an example this Sunday we sent the twin star up with a 4300 mah battery and she was flying for around 45 mins + on the same battery  and was flown by 5 of us passing on the Tx to each other. This was despite it being very very gusty and windy. We finally got bored and landed it for the 4th time during this time period so we took off 4 times and landed 4 time on the same battery with no major loss of power , the battery was a Zippy I have been using for the past 2 years.

sai
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« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2009, 07:51:54 AM »
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The mentor is not listed in your site so don't know about the price.....

Anyway, the Elapor planes seem to significantly increase the entry prices. I was wanting to try basic nitro based ARF and then just put a electric motor rather than nitro....

Pankaj
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« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2009, 08:45:13 AM »
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The mentor is not listed in your site so don't know about the price.....

Anyway, the Elapor planes seem to significantly increase the entry prices. I was wanting to try basic nitro based ARF and then just put a electric motor rather than nitro....

Pankaj
Pankaj ,
The Airframe  price may be higher but the overall set up will still be OK as they use smaller set ups being lighter .
In the case of  a Glow to electric conversion the airframe might be cheaper but the set up would be more expensive as they need heavier motors and batteries apart from repair costs as a beginner to Balsa . They are built  heavier with more reinforcement considering the engine vibrations .

I am speaking from experience since I have traveled down this road . My first electric plane was these :
Nov 2007 http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=693687&page=11&highlight=PT+60+electric+conversion
April 2008 :
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=392265

On hind site if I had known at that time about elapor planes I am not sure I would have gone down that road , not to say that it was a mistake I learnt a lot as far as electrics go handling big systems and the tiger 60 really enhanced Venkat's confidence to fly in any kind of wind.

Models like the Mentor , Twin Star are against advance order and are normally delivered in around 10 days time from Booking .

Sai
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« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2009, 08:59:03 AM »
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After seeing Santhosh's collection of multiplex planes, I have to admit they look like they are built to last.  Will know more hopefully on Saturday, when we are planning to maiden some of them.

BTW, what is the recommended method for fixing cracks for them ?  Hot glue OR med/thick CA + activator ?
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« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2009, 09:08:35 AM »
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After seeing Santhosh's collection of multiplex planes, I have to admit they look like they are built to last.  Will know more hopefully on Saturday, when we are planning to maiden some of them.

BTW, what is the recommended method for fixing cracks for them ?  Hot glue OR med/thick CA + activator ?

Hot Glue Or CA what ever suits you no issues only if you use CA check it on a small portion just in case  , you may find it a bit hard to crack it though  Grin Grin

Frankly Anwar before I actually experienced my 1st Multiplex  Easy Cub and Chan's Easy Star I was also very skeptical about the price  but after that I must admit I am a big fan of German Engineering they are a class apart .
No wonder BMW, MERC, Porshe , VW and Audi are all German .

Saju and me fixed the shattered  front end of the acromaster using hot glue it is back to rock solid in around 45 mins of repairs  .It was a crash similar to my BALSA Seduction which was a write off , the motor mount was shattered in this crash

Sai
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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2009, 09:12:00 AM »
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Pankaj ,
Just to give you an Idea :

Typically a balsa 0.46 eq. will require you to us  at least a 3520 + 80 amp ESC + 5-6 S Lipo  or possibly a 4120

For a Mentor  you can use a 2820 or at best a 2826 on 3 or 4 S with a 40 amp ESC  so it kind of evens out .

sai
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2009, 09:42:11 AM »
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Models like the Mentor , Twin Star are against advance order and are normally delivered in around 10 days time from Booking .



OK, but one must be able to see them listed in the shop along with a price tag for adance order to be placed  Smiley Smiley Smiley

Pankaj
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