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« on: July 22, 2015, 09:47:07 PM »
K K Iyer
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@anwar sir,
Considering that this forum has over 13000 members, i feel that you and senior moderators like rcpilotacro are the right persons to steer a petition to DGCA from RCI. (One presumes AMAI is doing something similar)

A draft is offered here, based on my email to DGCA on 12th Oct 2014.

1. DGCA could set up a website for flyers of remote controlled aircraft models to register on
2. Flyers of RC aircraft models can register by providing their name, ID, address, phone number, transmitter frequency and location of usual flying site, and get a registration number.
3. Flyers of non remote controlled models need not register.
4. Main restrictions can be:
- weight not to exceed 5kg
- no flight above 400 ft
- no flight within 5km of an ATC airport
- no flight over public or vehicles or houses. Rules for permission can be worked out.

The DGCA registration can be like a car numberplate. Flyers can proudly display on their models.

Anyone caught in suspicious circumstances can easily be identified as a bonafide hobbyist or not.

For many decades we were not allowed to photograph airports, something that is now allowed.
All aeromodellers are not necessarily enemies of the State!

Sir, if you don't take the lead, we'll have a lot of talk on the forum, and NO action!
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2015, 10:19:27 PM »
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As santanucus says in another thread, maybe we need to go higher.

The petition may need to be addressed to the PMO, copy to Minister for Civil Aviation and DGCA.
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2015, 10:25:30 PM »
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...
- no flight over public or vehicles or houses. Rules for permission can be worked out.

The DGCA registration can be like a car numberplate. Flyers can proudly display on their models....


Iyer sir,

I'd like to share my views while Anwar sir ponders upon all this.

1) All this negative stuff started with multirotors. I love RC as much as any hardcore RC enthusiast, but honestly, multirotors are just flying blenders even in experienced hands. Even if the propellers are shrouded, a falling multirotor can cause a lot of damage. I think the law should be that RC models capable of flight should ONLY be allowed in large open areas far away from residential areas.

2) Micro sized shrouded multirotors should be allowed indoors. Multirotors weighing less than 1 Kg should be allowed within the confines of the licenced individual's private property.

3) We should have licences for RC just like we have for vehicles. That way over-excited newbies and photographers won't be able to take to the air right away.

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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2015, 10:34:58 PM »
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As santanucus says in another thread, maybe we need to go higher.

The petition may need to be addressed to the PMO, copy to Minister for Civil Aviation and DGCA.

And while doing this we really need to take into consideration their perspective. For them it's a grown-up-kids' hobby VS national security. Also, the new breed of bad guys is using all kinds of technology while trying to infiltrate our lands. Maybe we should wait till after 15 August.
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2015, 10:39:17 PM »
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License shall be required for all the purpose including leisure as well. Although FAA has made license not mandatory for leisure purpose. But it shall be required in india since In india Terrorism is a major issue.
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2015, 10:49:04 PM »
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Just a thought
Maybe the IED and katta makers get permission from local administration...

Not clear why this is getting so complicated.
It's simple:
1. Register and fly as per safety rules
2. Otherwise fly and go to jail
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2015, 10:51:29 PM »
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If we go by UAV wise registration that would be a huge problem. A person may make or purchase many UAVs as part of his hobby. Often they dismantle one and make another from the components.  Just imagine if he has to go to DGCA everytime to get his new plane/quad registered. I think we should not give this proposal on our own. Rather, flyer-wise permission may be considered. This is like bargaining. We don't want to give in lots of concessions right at the beginning. In fact why suggest a "licence raj" type of restrictions right at the beginning? We shall gradually up the ante as we progress. If we start at a position of disadvantage, we'd end up with more disadvantage.

9/11 happened in USA..not India. If they can go for a licence-free regime, why do we insist upon licences from the beginning?
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2015, 10:55:04 PM »
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But sir in US . We need to obtain registration from FAA.(Not mandatory for some purpose). Since DGCA is likely to copy those rules. I am pretty much sure that it is going to happen.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 01:09:19 PM by anwar » Logged
 

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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2015, 11:00:28 PM »
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Please don't assume something from the beginning. DGCA will take FAA rules and put more restrictions in that. If we ourselves insist upon licensing even for recreational use then DGCA will impose even more restrictions. Licence for Commercial use is justified but for hobbies, if licences are required, it will become unpopular. Licences and restriction type Inspector Raj has become a thing of the past. Why insist upon it? I don't think we have to think what government wants..that is government's job. Our job as hobbyists is to put forward things that will be convenient to us.
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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2015, 11:06:41 PM »
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Maybe we need some 'out of the box' ideas...

One of the problems in India is how to implement helmet laws for two wheelers.

There is a simple answer.
Insurance Cos should introduce a clause that no claim will be entertained if helmet was not worn. Insured will be liable for all claims by aggrieved parties.
That's all.

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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2015, 11:21:06 PM »
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Registration could be an extention of 'licence raj'
But we do need driving licence, no?

Here's an 'out of the box idea'
If we are so concerned about 'security', why don't the police/security agencies just shoot down any 'aerial vehicle' they consider a security risk?
Our local cops know us, know that we are not a security risk, and often stop by to watch us fly.

Or just deflate both tires of helmetless riders.

Perhaps after we finish catching all the stray dogs...
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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2015, 11:39:01 PM »
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Maybe we need some 'out of the box' ideas...

In USA the FAA does not require licences for recreational use of UAVs. I think we should not insist upon the same in India. Licence Raj is a thing of the past and government does not have manpower to do that. Also Licence Raj will breed corruption.

But if you insist, a simplified online system may be considered (let us think out of box and not in 1960s-1980s terms Smiley)

My suggestions is this...please comment.

1. Let UAV fliers be registered online using a specific website.

2. Let flyers be identified and linked with Aadhar Number or Election Identity Card

3. They can register their UAVs online too. Photos, weight and other capabilities e.g camera, FPV, telemetry etc. and similar details can be uploaded by the user himself/herself

4. Places where they are likely to fly can be informed online by the user himself. For example, if I want to fly in Goa, I enter the time and dates and locations online. In fact flying locations can be pointed out on a Google Map mashup at the site. The map can also automatically display restricted areas where flying should not be done. Time based restricted areas can also be shown e.g. around Red Fort area on August 15th.

5. After entering details of UAV, a printout of UAV identification number can be generated and pasted on the UAV itself

6. After the user registers the location to fly (which can be a date or a range of dates) he can generate a printout, which he should carry with himself at the time of flying. Authorities can also ask for the slip anytime from the flier.


I think with this kind of simple online registration system in place, we'd not have a problem with flying or carrying the UAV anymore. User identification will be easy. And there will not be an issue of Licence raj. Such a system will address security concerns and also flyers' convenience.
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2015, 06:53:53 AM »
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...Our job as hobbyists is to put forward things that will be convenient to us.

Yeah, because our convenience is so much more important than safety and security.

Like Iyer sir said, we are over-complicating this. There should be just one simple law: fly in large open spaces far away from people.

This hobby is getting into more and more inept hands every day. I really don't mind standing in a queue to get registered if it means less noob disasters. I'll completely support the ban on flying around people if that's what it takes.

I like the idea of having a registration number based on our Aadhar card number. This way, if you aren't registered, face the consequences. If you are registered, simply follow the rules.

Individual models need not be registered. That's just stupid.
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2015, 10:52:29 AM »
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Very good suggestion here santanucus.
But the point is our lazy government will not implement anything..
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2015, 11:00:29 AM »
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guys, who is the head of rcindia.org??
i could draft a petition as from rcindia.org to the dgca through change.org
and with many good points of ideas as shared by y'all....pls reply...
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2015, 11:01:12 AM »
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we shud all demand more so then when dgca goes on cutting, we are left with what we wanted
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2015, 11:06:33 AM »
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i really feel change.org could work....by protesting together as "RCINDIA" we could do something.....can anyone tell where can i chat with the head of rcindia.org?
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« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2015, 11:08:44 AM »
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https://www.change.org/p/npark-designate-space-in-public-parks-for-uav-hobbyists
in singapore, they are gonna assign special areas in parks for uav hobbyists...
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2015, 11:55:02 AM »
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Re:

From my point of view this will be best.

1. We can get an license for flying planes, multirotors, helicopters and any other thing.
2. No need to get an license for every single plane, quad, etc.
3. Assign some places where we can fly.
4. For commercial purposes permission should be requieed for every single time they fly.

These is what I could think of!
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2015, 01:01:42 PM »
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Very good suggestion here santanucus.
But the point is our lazy government will not implement anything..

Its not about individuals. Its the system. The system in the government is such that nobody wants to take decisions. Everybody proposes "safe" measures to save his skin. That's why things don't get going. But there are ways to address this problem.

Please post your draft petitions. We can write individually, as a group, online in change.org and through all the means possible. The more, the better. But our letters should have a common framework to be effective.

As for Singapore, my opinion is that Singapore is a city state with very limited area. The can and should specify parks for flying. But India is a big country. There should be exclusion zones. But if there are only specific places to fly, that would be too restrictive and people would be fored to violate the law due to inconvenience.

As for licence, if its online, then even if we get every plane registered, that won't be a hassle. But ideally, I think like USA, government in our country should not impose licences on hobbyists. At the most it should be online self-declaration. But in the eventuality that licensing is imposed, how best to deal with it is the subject matter of our concern.
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2015, 01:14:24 PM »
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We don't have agreement over whether a licensing system would help or not ! Sad

Overall, anytime there is licensing involved, it seems to instill some discipline on the owners (like gun licenses in our country). It does typically come with lots of redtape and procedure (depositing guns at police stations during elections etc), and renewal hassles.  I am not sure licensing will be smooth in our country.

Putting simple but well defined ("CLEAR" !) rules might be the viable thing, along with designated spaces identified by local clubs.
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2015, 01:19:41 PM »
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For Noida Aero Club (AMAI) here is what we did and its working great for us .....

IMG_1153_2.jpg
Re: Petition to DGCA
* IMG_1153_2.jpg (43.29 KB, 600x800 - viewed 984 times.)
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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2015, 01:21:48 PM »
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It does "sound" really important.... basically should work Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2015, 01:27:57 PM »
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https://www.change.org/p/directorate-general-of-civil-aviation-form-rules-for-uav-flying-as-a-recreational-hobby?just_created=true
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2015, 02:57:05 PM »
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We don't have agreement over whether a licensing system would help or not ! Sad

Overall, anytime there is licensing involved, it seems to instill some discipline on the owners (like gun licenses in our country). It does typically come with lots of redtape and procedure (depositing guns at police stations during elections etc), and renewal hassles.  I am not sure licensing will be smooth in our country.

Putting simple but well defined ("CLEAR" !) rules might be the viable thing, along with designated spaces identified by local clubs.

Sir...That's why I am not in favour of licensing either because in India it gives rise to harassment, corruption and red tape. But clear rules should be framed and we should write to the authorities putting forth our viewpoints and inputs before the frame the rules.

So what do you say ... ? Will you send any petition on behalf of this group or shall members send individual petitions?
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2015, 03:14:05 PM »
Darshan for multirotors
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Subscribed but I don't think it's gonna work cause you need at least 100 to make it a petition and further for the DGCA to see it (if they see it)
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2015, 03:26:21 PM »
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License will no doubt complicate things, it's better that we petition so that govt. realises this is a hobby and draft such rules that it doesn't inconvenience  a hobbyist but at the same time ensures that it won't let them go unpunished if they break the rules or the norms set by the system.
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2015, 06:04:31 PM »
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I fully agree. But we need to write these things to PM so that our point of view is taken into consideration. Sitting idle and hoping for the best will not help.

I request Anwar Sir to take some initiative on behalf of this forum.
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2015, 05:26:28 PM »
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http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/Centre-Frames-Extensive-Guidelines-to-Prevent-Aerial-Terror/2015/09/05/article3011404.ece


Regulations are very strict
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2015, 09:06:36 AM »
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Hi all,
 I'm aakash from chhattisgarh.
My hobby is photography which lead me into drones.
Currently i have Walkera 350pro and DJI phantom 3 standard.

I just want to ask if any of you know how long will it take to legalize UAV in India. Since its actually banned since 2014 oct.
And should we try to do something about it.
Kindly discuss your view here.
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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2015, 10:04:38 AM »
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We have done many things. if you go through the forum youll find it.
the decisions are yet to come.
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« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2015, 10:48:49 AM »
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FAA constituted a Task Force to consider Registration of Unmanned Aerial Systems.
The Task Force members were:
3D Robotics (3DR), Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA), Aerospace Industries Association (AIA), Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA), Amazon Prime Air, Amazon Retail, American Association of Airport Executives (AAAE), Association for Unmanned Vehicle Systems International (AUVSI), Best Buy, Consumer Technology Association (CTA), DJI, General Aviation Manufacturers Association (GAMA), GoogleX, GoPro,Helicopter Association International (HAI), International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP), Management Association for Private Photogrammetric Surveyors (MAPPS), Measure, National Association of State Aviation Officials (NASAO), National Business Aviation Association (NBAA), Parrot, Precision Hawk, Small UAV Coalition, Walmart.

The executive summary of their report dated 21.11.15 says:
The Task Force recommendations for the registration process are summarized as follows:
1) Fill out an electronic registration form through the web or through an application (app).
2) Immediately receive an electronic certificate of registration and a personal universal registration number for use on all sUAS owned by that person.
3) Mark the registration number (or registered serial number) on all applicable sUAS prior to their operation in the NAS.

Sounds familiar?

A draft is offered here, based on my email to DGCA on 12th Oct 2014.

1. DGCA could set up a website for flyers of remote controlled aircraft models to register on
2. Flyers of RC aircraft models can register by providing their name, ID, address, phone number, transmitter frequency and location of usual flying site, and get a registration number.
3. Flyers of non remote controlled models need not register.
4. Main restrictions can be:
- weight not to exceed 5kg
- no flight above 400 ft
- no flight within 5km of an ATC airport
- no flight over public or vehicles or houses. Rules for permission can be worked out.

The DGCA registration can be like a car numberplate. Flyers can proudly display on their models.
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« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2015, 11:20:21 AM »
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Iyer sir, eventually there will have to be some sort of licensing, to ensure an unqualified and undesirable person does not operate

Point is: In our desh this converts just to a license raj, another conduit for ghoos, and never can be implemented effectively
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« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2015, 11:52:40 AM »
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Iyer Sir, is dgca wants faa approval for the program to run in India.
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« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2015, 05:06:14 AM »
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Here's a suggestion for DGCA:

1. Make all of us register with FAA (free till 20th Jan 2016!)
2. Ask FAA to give DGCA access to their database

Will save DGCA all the trouble of setting up a monitoring system.
Cheep and besht, huh?
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« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2015, 03:51:51 PM »
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Re:

The American officers will get rich!
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2015, 01:19:20 AM »
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people are against faa right now
hope we have it easier here
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« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2015, 11:17:23 PM »
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Hi all members,
Just got the Jan issue of RCSD. Found this in the editorial.

As we proceed with this process, we suggest AMA members hold off on registering their model aircraft with the FAA until advised by the AMA or until February 19, the FAA’s legal deadline for registering existing model aircraft.

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« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2015, 01:53:14 AM »
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I think that this could be the reason for hold off registration;
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2564305
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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2015, 08:14:16 PM »
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Well... my two bit....

DGCA is the authority to be reckoned with in our country.  It will never allow FAA to take charge of any issue where DGCA should be taking charge.  Well but the other side is... FAA is considered acceptable to the world and so the DGCA.  ICAO is the mother body for all these to enact any law or rule....

Well.... on the issue of allowing flying of UAS in Indian civil airspace.... only DGCA has the authority but it can not be countering any of the ICAO rulings as it is ICAO which makes the rules on civil avilation and the local bodies like DGCA further make rules as per the local laws... to be implemented as per the guidelines of ICAO.  Today the security environment is so complex that anything and everything can be made to instigate a mob or create a public scare.  Further flying the UAS specially the multicopters (as many people refer to them as drones) in crowded public places like marriages and places of worship during some festivals for photography) in public places has a lot of dangers as most equipment is not safety certifies.  The simple Phantom if safety certified for use in public places will probably cost a huge amount and be out of reach of most individual buyers. 

As of now... I believe the DGCA has stated that it is in the process of formalising regulations for individuals flying UAS in Indian Civil Airspace and this they have said in clear terms.  Therefore....  

Lets give it to the DGCA to come out with the rulings and conditions it wants to impose on flying these aeromodels.  I am sure it will be such that both civil aviation and the hobby can go hand in hand and in an absolute safe environment.  All we need to do is.... the so called apex bodies of aeromodellers in India need to stand up now..... or they should have done it long time ago... to form some sort of regulations and pass them to all aeromodellers to adhere to in their own ways.  As much water has flown over now.... guess this is the best course to be followed.

1.  Wait for DGCA to formulate the guidelines.

2.  The aeromodeller associations in the country need to sit together and come out with a safe set of guidelines which correspond to the various Civil aviation guidelines and safety and security aspects in general.  This will assist DGCA to understand what the aeromodellers want and how they want to implement it.

3.  The final word still remains with the DGCA.

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Well I been into aeromodelling since I was in School....  had won the "WINGS Open" at "Bombay" (as it was known then) in 1985 for control line aerobatics (was doing my graduation at that time) and had received a big gold trophy....  Mr Bhivandiwala organised it and gave good awards.
Our team had won the following medals:-
1.   Gold for Control Line Aerobatics
2.   Silver and Bronze for Control line speed
3.   Bronze for Free Flight Glider
Sharma Models helped us train to win the medals
 

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« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2015, 09:19:18 PM »
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AMA in USA that has existed for over 50 years, and has lacs of members, was unable to get FAA to accept AMA number as registration.

What about aeromodelling associations in India?
I was a member of SMAE over 50 years ago, but now I'm not a member of anything except RCI!

How many members does AMAI have? How many RCI members are members of AMAI?
How many members does RCI have? Is RCI the largest Indian aeromodellers association?

I am aware of only 3 service officers on RCI. Are there others? Are there any IAS, IFS, IPS members? Any senior Judges?
Probably not.
Without them there's no way we can talk to the Govt.

You have seen what response I got from DGCA (none!)
You have seen what response santanucus got (buck passing)

I fear that we'll not get a clear answer in the next 2-3 years...

I request RCI members who are in positions of administrative power to use their influence.



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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2015, 01:43:20 PM »
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(as per my information ) more then 10 associations & group (which According to them they are promoting aeromodeling in india)
but i dont know either they are promoting aeromoeling or yourself, No one is asking what they Did or Doing for this Hobby.
well it is a different issue. Our problem is that No one want to come out n act responsibly, they just blaming the AMAI.

AMAI has 400+ member in Today date & we will do it which would be good for aeromodling n Our members

Regards
laxman
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« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2015, 04:09:07 PM »
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KK Sir..... my humble request.... I may be an optimistic.... but guess the DGCA is on the job and soon the guidelines will be out...  I am sure the DGCA has intentions of clearing the individuals to fly their"UAS".........
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Well I been into aeromodelling since I was in School....  had won the "WINGS Open" at "Bombay" (as it was known then) in 1985 for control line aerobatics (was doing my graduation at that time) and had received a big gold trophy....  Mr Bhivandiwala organised it and gave good awards.
Our team had won the following medals:-
1.   Gold for Control Line Aerobatics
2.   Silver and Bronze for Control line speed
3.   Bronze for Free Flight Glider
Sharma Models helped us train to win the medals
 

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