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« on: September 23, 2009, 03:29:13 PM »
anwar
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Is it a coincidence that all the people in the video are older gentlemen  Wink



They must be having fun reliving the glory of the past.
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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2009, 03:36:19 PM »
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oh these chuck gliders or free flights are so much fun i can play for hours with them n still not get bored,i have started my aero modeling hobby with homemade foam free-flights !
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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 04:49:02 PM »
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This is what I have been saying -

We need more people to fly

We need more options to fly both in terms of cost and types.



Pankaj
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 05:27:37 PM »
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Is it a coincidence that all the people in the video are older gentlemen  Wink



They must be having fun reliving the glory of the past.

Anwar yes,
And that is lamentable as majority of people comig into this hobby are just "flyers" and not aeromodellers. Most do not realise the skills required and the amount of fun which can be had with free flight (powered/unpowered) and other branches of the hobby like CL etc. But then i guess this is the age of instant gratification and people do not have time or patience to go through the long process of learning those skills. They would rather buy and fly a toy made in some far east country and get thier share of fun.   
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 05:55:40 PM »
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I don't know if it is lamantable  Roll Eyes 

I belong to the class that does 85% flying 14% assembling from ARFs and kits (which can be quite an undertaking when it comes to helis, where scratch building is not a practical option anyways) and 1% building from scratch.  If we go by"modeling" the immediate meaning/sense of which is about "building a model", you are right that a vast majority are not "aeromodelers", and are just "flyers".  Just to feel cozy about what people like me are doing, we are "model flyers".  I guess we are missing the fun of having our own creation in the air, but it is a lot of fun none the less.

Since the ultimate objective is to fly, I am not sure if that is something lamantable though !  Like someone pointed out, having a perfectly trimmed model, and executing maneuvers to perfection are just as fun as building a model.  Being able to identify the flying characteristics of various aircrafts, and adjusting your controls to compensate for them etc are fun activities that require skill. 

I always worry when "building" is alone considered "aeromodeling" (notwithstanding the meaning of the word itself).
 
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 08:01:14 PM »
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I never said building alone is considered modelling. Even for me half the fun is in flying and rest in building.
It is lamentable in the way when you see people at the filed and who can not tell a spar from a longeron and neither have any idea how to repair a model because they had no idea how the machine was built. It is lamenatble when you see people who never had the joys of building from kit/scratch (the very meaning of buiolding has changed where assembling an ARF is considered as building) and then seeing thier creation take to air, it is lamenatble when you see people fiddling with thier trims and electronic subtrims etc to get the control surfaces etc set up instead of first setting up to best mechanical advantage before going on to electronic ones. It is lamentable when people miss out the knolwedge to be gained on tools and materials which could be gained if one built (in true sense). It is lamenatble 'cause people do not gain the knowledge and the skills which could be had by trimming a free flight model to perform as intended (and beleive me that takes much better skill and understanding of laws of aerodynamics and weather than trimming a RC machine, not to mention patience and time).

But then "The old order changeth yielding palce to new"  (from The passing of King Arthur ) aptly sums it up. Having said that I also accept that every one has thier likes and dislikes and I am no one to force anyone to change thier ways. The only intention of post was to let other knows of my view and I still stand by what I have said and per me an aeromodeller is someone who can build and fly as well. If you just build and do not fly you are a builder, if you only fly you are a flyer if you do both you are aeromodeller Grin
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 08:27:50 PM »
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You know the greatest thing going for building ? - its Cheap

especially if you do it from scratch

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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 08:33:16 PM »
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I am builder from ARFs and heli kits.  When setting up a heli to do a proper "tic-toc" say 5 times consecutively (or a few "piro-flip"s in sequence), unless your machine is really trimmed (mostly mechanically, electronic trim is a last resort), you will be all over the place. And one really needs to know the mechanical aspects of a heli to do it right.  So that puts me and many like in a position of "builder", where I went for a standard design, and part of the kit already pre cut  and pre shaped for me.  Would that put me in a 25% builder category or a 50% builder category ?

More importantly, if I am a 25% builder (in the above sense), and 75% flyer; what would I be called, based on your classification of a "builder", "flyer" and "aeromodeller" ?  Roll Eyes  Grin  Is "building/assembling an ARF"  considered "building" at all in your viewpoint ?  BTW, I intend no harm with these questions, just getting clarification on what your views are ! In some ways, I am also trying to defend the average Ramu or Raju, who just wants to fly as much as he can !!

May be most people need to realize the importance of scratch building, and that is the good I hope to get out of this discussion.

Note that everyone builds.  Not everyone does "scratch" builds. Everyone crashes, so everyone is forced to repair and tinker at some point.  That leads me to see everyone as "aeromodeller"s  >Cheesy

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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 08:52:56 PM »
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More importantly, if I am a 25% builder (in the above sense), and 75% flyer; what would I be called, based on your classification of a "builder", "flyer" and "aeromodeller" ?  Roll Eyes  Grin  Is building an ARF building at all in your book ?  (BTW, I intend no harm with these questions, just getting clarification on what your views are!).  May be most people need to realize the importance of scratch building, and that is the good I hope to get out of this discussion.

Note that everyone builds.  Not everyone does "scratch" builds. So I would like to see everyone as "aeromodeller"s  >Cheesy



look up "pedantic"

far be it for me to pontificate - I'll tell you my views - I build because I like to - its a hobby after all.

The very fact we are all in this forum tells me that we are all "aeromodellers" - We are a rare breed - especially
in India and I think we are lucky that this is the hobby we chose.
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 09:05:25 PM »
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You know the greatest thing going for building ? - its Cheap

especially if you do it from scratch



Will have to disagree with it. Scratch building is not cheap. The Chinese with thier mass manufacture are hard to beat at the price front 
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2009, 09:11:58 PM »
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If you are into SPADs then it is definitely cheap.. Rs 400 to make 2 airframes of 40 - 60 size.

I agree with Anwar on helis. I have not met anyone who has scratch built a heli.. I do remember seeing some youtube video of scratch built heli not in India though. So, in my view, if you are flying heli you are predominantly a flyer.

-Ismail


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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2009, 09:17:46 PM »
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I am builder from ARFs and heli kits.  When setting up a heli to do a proper "tic-toc" say 5 times consecutively (or a few "piro-flip"s in sequence), unless your machine is really trimmed (mostly mechanically, electronic trim is a last resort), you will be all over the place. And one really needs to know the mechanical aspects of a heli to do it right.  So that puts me and many like in a position of "builder", where I went for a standard design, and part of the kit already pre cut  and pre shaped for me.  Would that put me in a 25% builder category or a 50% builder category ?

More importantly, if I am a 25% builder (in the above sense), and 75% flyer; what would I be called, based on your classification of a "builder", "flyer" and "aeromodeller" ?  Roll Eyes  Grin  Is "building/assembling an ARF"  considered "building" at all in your viewpoint ?  BTW, I intend no harm with these questions, just getting clarification on what your views are ! In some ways, I am also trying to defend the average Ramu or Raju, who just wants to fly as much as he can !!

May be most people need to realize the importance of scratch building, and that is the good I hope to get out of this discussion.

Note that everyone builds.  Not everyone does "scratch" builds. Everyone crashes, so everyone is forced to repair and tinker at some point.  That leads me to see everyone as "aeromodeller"s  >Cheesy

Anwar,
1. You say you build from ARF's and Heli Kits - My point this is not building just assembling. Even building form pre cut kit does not count as building for me, the least would be building from plans.This is not scratch building (here again people think that if you build from a plan it is scratch built, it is not). Unless you have desinged the plan and then cut the parts, assembeled them together and then flown that is true scratch building
2. It is good to know that you get the max from mechanical setup before you go on to electronic stuff. But the point is how many do that?
3. That would put you in 0% builder category as it does not count as building. Please refer point 1 above
4. Since you are 0% builder you would be termed (in my opinion, others are welcome to disagree) as model flyer
5. I do not hold any grudge against the average Ramu and Raju, people are welcome to do what pleases them. In my opinion it is lamentable 'cause there is much more to be learnt if one wished to
6. Not everyone builds, most assemble. Very few scratch build
7. If people built they would be better at tinkering and repairing and that would also open up the avenues for inovation and spirit of questioning if's and why's of the design.     
8 I will stick to my point not everyone is an aeromodeller in true sense
Good night for today

BTW - Heli's do not even count as airplane in my opinion they are aircrafts all right, but not an airplane
 
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2009, 09:45:56 PM »
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So, in my view, if you are flying heli you are predominantly a flyer.

Dude.. that hurts !  Roll Eyes  Cry

It takes a lot of effort to "assemble" a full heli and have it properly setup mechanically and then do the CCPM stuff in the radio.  You should either try it once, or at least be around someone when they go through the process to appreciate it  Grin  I always felt it is tougher compared to say a building a foamie from sheets of foam based on a plan.
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2009, 10:45:41 PM »
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i fully agree with anwar and a request to others bfor posting like this at least try to hover a heli ( may b  u  can  fly an aeroplane well), then u can feel the difference...........same thing happns in scratch building a heli and an aeroplane, recently i made a aeroplane from coroplast and it flew nicely, but i cant even think of building  a heli from a rtf kit.
Rajesh and Anwar can tell more on this

santhosh
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2009, 10:50:28 PM »
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Recently there are a spate of arguments here where people make up rules of the game (and even change it in the middle of the discussion) to win. So I am also going to make up my own rules  Grin

Why stop at the airframe to qualify as a scratch builder. You should also make your own servos and tx/rx. You should wind your own motors or build your own engine. "It is lamentable when people miss out the knowledge to be gained on tools and materials which could be gained if one built" (Uh oh, I reused a line, so this post does not count as original innovation, sigh...) There are a lot of people who do have the ability, knowledge and time to build these as well. And what about the control horns and clevises, you need to mold them yourself. Also carve the prop.

So Capt. hereby I take away the scratch builder title from you and declare you too as an assembler.  >Cheesy

You can have the title back if you build me one of your scale models. I still remember that tiger moth.
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2009, 10:51:49 PM »
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Oops isnt this thread about gliders  Roll Eyes

ADMIN NOTE: This thread was split from http://www.rcindia.org/beginners-zone/glider-lover/ , hence the comment above.
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2009, 10:58:43 PM »
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Sorry about that Anwar. But thatz how I see it.

I go exactly with what Manish has said in the previous post. Building from kit is fun but lacks the punch of having your own design taking off to the sky. I am a 100% SPAD builder but I know how much of effort is involved in building a scale model out of balsa. If you could build something from your own design (plan), detail it (in case of a scale model)..and fly it then you are the perfect candidate for a "true aeromodeller".

Helis are a different game. Its not easy to do a scratch build unless you own a precision lathe machine and a decent workshop. Or at least hire a lathe shop to make your design... Scale modeling of heli is next to impossible for an average modeller. So, the only option is to "assemble" from a kit. This will never qualify as a scratch build eventhough you have the qualities of a "true aeromodeller"... In my books, becomming a true aeromodeller the heli way is very very difficult... You need to design and scratch build your own heli... thatz my point of view, others may differ.

And yes, I know its difficult to fly a Heli than an aeroplane. But I do not think that can compensate for the design/build skill. Both are different ain't it?

BTW, I fully respect the Heli crowd here and I do admire their skill. Helis require true skill in building and flying as well...

-Ismail
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2009, 11:44:59 PM »
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Oops isnt this thread about gliders  Roll Eyes

Come on.. you should have figured it out by now.  It works something like this.

1) Everyone has an opinion (aka "butt-hole") on everything.
2) Speak your mind fearlessly about your butt-hole regardless of the topic. Hijack any topic, we will fix it later (see [5] below). You run the risk of getting nasty PMs, like the one I got from Sai recently, to which I responded, and his response back was "Relax". Moral of the story, you can be pretty mean and get away with it !
3) Speak with passion and logic (as much as possible, it is highly debatable it itself though!).  This tickles others ego, and forces them to pitch in with their own butt-holes.
4) A heated discussion follows, which may be completely unrelated to the original topic.  But the information is useful, about 75% of the time.
5) When there is enough discussion, SPLIT THE THREAD into a new one. For example, this will soon be something like "Are you man enough to be an aeromodeller?"  ("Kya aap paanchvi pass sey tez hai?")
6) END RESULT - We have an active forum, not one with one post a day.  Everyone learns a bit, everyone feels self-important, everyone waits for the next round !

And that is my grand strategy ! Some people think it is fake.  Some think we are not serious (which brings up the point, should a "hobby" ever be "totally serious"?). I would say just look at the sanity and logic of arguments, and not try to find (or feel) any "tone behind the arguments".  The only time I was kidding was with Sai and Saju (based on somewhat of a mutual understanding), and even then, the arguments were sane !

 
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2009, 12:14:20 AM »
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Man! this butt-hole thing is catching on...!!  Grin Grin
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2009, 12:52:17 AM »
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Why stop at the airframe to qualify as a scratch builder. You should also make your own servos and tx/rx.

So Capt. hereby I take away the scratch builder title from you and declare you too as an assembler.  >Cheesy

If I ever get accused of murder, you can be my lawyer... TWICE  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2009, 01:44:53 AM »
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Ok...

To all builders - why not post pics of your planes and let the forum comment on your building skills!!

To all flyers - why not post videos of your flying skills and let the forum comment!!

That should cement whether we should be calling ourselves or each other as flyers/builders/modellers - and make the forum all the more focussed on planes and flying and building than those stinky b**t h***s!!
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2009, 10:19:11 AM »
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 Huh?
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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2009, 12:04:16 PM »
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Recently there are a spate of arguments here where people make up rules of the game (and even change it in the middle of the discussion) to win. So I am also going to make up my own rules  Grin

Why stop at the airframe to qualify as a scratch builder. You should also make your own servos and tx/rx. You should wind your own motors or build your own engine. "It is lamentable when people miss out the knowledge to be gained on tools and materials which could be gained if one built" (Uh oh, I reused a line, so this post does not count as original innovation, sigh...) There are a lot of people who do have the ability, knowledge and time to build these as well. And what about the control horns and clevises, you need to mold them yourself. Also carve the prop.

So Capt. hereby I take away the scratch builder title from you and declare you too as an assembler.  >Cheesy

You can have the title back if you build me one of your scale models. I still remember that tiger moth.

Rajesh,
Will build anything if the time and effort are rightly compensated.
Yes I can carve a prop myself and have done that too, can not say how many have ever even heard of even that. Yes control horns have been made and so are the clevises with piano wire. If any one is interested I can still teach them. Before the advent of ready made stuff being available and due to shortage of funds that was the rule build your own.
And every one who has responded to my post have missed a very important point and  that is the root of my lament. Today only RC and ic/electric powered models count as models. Why do I need to even build an RC or an engine when an unpowered glider or a rubber powered model can take more skills?     
To add on to the lamentable things here is one more
People do not have ability to see others point of view let alone accept one. And oh BTW the butt hole thing is pretty old people need to invent something new. If you or anyone else has taken the trouble through my entire posts it would be noticed that right in the begining I had said that people are welcome to do what pleases them, my point was that I can not force them to do what I think is right.   
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2009, 12:22:00 PM »
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And the last post on this topic from me.
For Anwar,
The feeling which I get always from most of the posts on various threads at the forum is what others say is always wrong, whereas some people have the right to be always right (I even know some one is going to turn around that sentence and accuse me of the same, but I feel there is a difference. I have never insisted that what I say everyone should agree to that, rather have been painstakingly insisting that, this was only my butt err! opinion)
As for hijacking someone's thread, since what we have been saying was being attacked it was but logical to rebutt. The administrator had the rights and wherewithall to move all the unconnected threads to a new one.   
And the last point
Before those ARF helis became available enmass, it was the rule that the pioneer's in heli flying built thier own helis and flew them, Yes they were true aeromodellers.
So if you just buy a heli kit, assemble it and do your electronic and mechanical wizardry, and fly it in most amazing manner you do have lots of skills in various fields but no, you are not an aeromodeller.   
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2009, 12:50:14 PM »
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Quote
Some think we are not serious (which brings up the point, should a "hobby" ever be "totally serious"?). I would say just look at the sanity and logic of arguments, and not try to find (or feel) any "tone behind the arguments".

"totally serious " - No. But certainly not frivolous either. When there is not much "sanity and logic" evident then one, understandably, feels a "tone behind" them.

Quote
The feeling which I get always from most of the posts on various threads at the forum is what others say is always wrong, whereas some people have the right to be always right

Will second that.


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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2009, 01:59:32 PM »
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Recently there are a spate of arguments here where people make up rules of the game (and even change it in the middle of the discussion) to win. So I am also going to make up my own rules  Grin

Why stop at the airframe to qualify as a scratch builder. You should also make your own servos and tx/rx. You should wind your own motors or build your own engine. "It is lamentable when people miss out the knowledge to be gained on tools and materials which could be gained if one built" (Uh oh, I reused a line, so this post does not count as original innovation, sigh...) There are a lot of people who do have the ability, knowledge and time to build these as well. And what about the control horns and clevises, you need to mold them yourself. Also carve the prop.

So Capt. hereby I take away the scratch builder title from you and declare you too as an assembler.  >Cheesy

You can have the title back if you build me one of your scale models. I still remember that tiger moth.

Rajesh,
Will build anything if the time and effort are rightly compensated.
Yes I can carve a prop myself and have done that too, can not say how many have ever even heard of even that. Yes control horns have been made and so are the clevises with piano wire. If any one is interested I can still teach them. Before the advent of ready made stuff being available and due to shortage of funds that was the rule build your own.
And every one who has responded to my post have missed a very important point and  that is the root of my lament. Today only RC and ic/electric powered models count as models. Why do I need to even build an RC or an engine when an unpowered glider or a rubber powered model can take more skills?     
To add on to the lamentable things here is one more
People do not have ability to see others point of view let alone accept one. And oh BTW the butt hole thing is pretty old people need to invent something new. If you or anyone else has taken the trouble through my entire posts it would be noticed that right in the begining I had said that people are welcome to do what pleases them, my point was that I can not force them to do what I think is right.   

First of all, let me make it clear that my last post in this thread does not reflect my opinion. As I stated in the first post I saw people making their own rules to suit themselves. I countered that using the same arguments. I don't subscribe to the view of "true aeromodeller" here at all. There are many facets to this hobby and we should be open to accept and respect the skills in all the departments. Now when I made my own rules (by extension of the same arguments used by others) how come suddenly you don't want to play the game ?

You said "Will build anything if the time and effort are rightly compensated. " This is the same reason people use ARFs instead of scratch building, but that is a lamentable idea to you. Same argument goes against carving the prop and making your own clevises. The results are just not worth the efforts.

See, again I am using your own arguments against your own judgements.
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2009, 03:06:54 PM »
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For Anwar,
The feeling which I get always from most of the posts on various threads at the forum is what others say is always wrong, whereas some people have the right to be always right

That is insane !  How can any one be always right ?  More than that, WHO is putting marks against these arguments (opinions rather) and declaring winners ?!?!?

And most importantly, almost all of these threads are on issues that are highly subjective ("bottomless pits" in Ismail's words).  There is no questions of anyone being winner in these cases. I can show at least 5 places in these threads where I am saying these are mostly personal opinions. Nobody is ever forced to agree with anyone else, how is that even possible ?

Personally, there are only one or two cases where I felt there were concrete issues in these threads, which were above personal opinions.  The very first thread of this argumentative nature was when the whole of "2.4Ghz" technology was scrutinized in what I felt was an unfair fashion and then Futaba FAAST was subjected to the same treatment (a model crashing at 8am in Chennai on a cloudy day, and it is due to heat issues?). It is true that such threads proved that people are passionate about what they believe.  Again saying "I FELT it is ABOVE PERSONAL OPINIONS" is itself self contradictory, but it was something above "just an opinion".

It also proved (as all these subsequent discussion and threads show) that people will vent their opinions when the basis of their arguments are questioned, and result in the forum being a more active and open place.  But declaring winners ?  Come on.  We all are smarter than that. 

(I declared Futaba winner once, but that was a joke and it was made clear. Just wanted to see if the other side was just busy doing something else, or was giving up on the arguments, well realizing that these are mostly opinions).


And the last point
Before those ARF helis became available enmass, it was the rule that the pioneer's in heli flying built thier own helis and flew them, Yes they were true aeromodellers.
So if you just buy a heli kit, assemble it and do your electronic and mechanical wizardry, and fly it in most amazing manner you do have lots of skills in various fields but no, you are not an aeromodeller.   

It is good to see that you have that opinion (so does Ismail, and I respect that).  I for one, have the opinion that people like me who have spent significant amount of time learning about helis (and associated items like rebuilding nitro engines and electric power systems) have acquired more knowledge in general than someone who made his own plan (hardly anyone does that, except to "base it on existing ones"), cut some foam, and built an electric foamy from scratch using local materials (who in your definition is an "aeromodeller") and stopped at that. 

I guess I am an "aeromodeller" in my own way/definition !  Grin  Since we are living in a world when someone can start out being a heli enthusiast and stay that way for his whole life, it is about time we rewrote some old definitions !  Just like you are not building servos yourself, we picked a different starting point suitable for helis, that's all Wink

And the last post on this topic from me.

This is another aspect I never understood.  Does one have to either WIN or STOP every discussion ? Why not be open ? Why be worried about being right or wrong, and instead speak one's mind ?  After all, this is a just a forum based on some common interests, and no one is above anyone else.  (Being in the somewhat unfortunate position of administrator and supposedly moderator, I have to make it clear from time to time Sad )

Only opinions are personal, the interaction is NOT !


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« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2009, 03:43:08 PM »
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Ok so kill the thread with the fact that all of us are aeromodellers in our own little/big ways and lets start another thread on a more plane'ish or heli'ish subject  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2009, 03:54:12 PM »
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Why kill a nice thread ? Ismail is the expert at that  Wink  This thread may have some more juice left in it !

For one it was an eye opener for me that people felt "that someone had the right to be always right".  As childish as that argument is, now I do realize what people mean when they say "make one's own rules".  I guess I just witnessed the birth of one !

And I am taken aback when Sushil agreed that there is no logic in these threads.  I guess people are missing the big picture, that the logic is in the fact that these are "just diverse personal opinions within a bunch of like minded people and each one is arguing his point". I hope it becomes more evident in the future. 

Bottom line, it is OK to have an opinion, it is OK to say it, and it more than OK to say it HERE.  We respect others opinions, even when we disagree with them.  That is the root of a civil society.
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« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2009, 04:40:53 PM »
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I would rather let this thread live... Its so much fun to watch people arguing over their points.. May be we should have more smileys like kicking, punching.. etc.
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« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2009, 04:44:31 PM »
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Exactly Ismail   Wink 

And that is exactly what was intended of all the other threads (and never to enforce anyone's will over anybody else, or to be winners). I would like to see more discussion along with reporting of "RC news".  Of course it is exciting to see what everyone else is working on, what new toys/gadgets/models people are playing with, new building techniques and so on; but also discussions (which are almost always based on personal opinions !)

PS: I am working on adding more smileys, got 297 of them in a lot, need to pick and choose some.  Hope to do it this weekend !
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« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2009, 04:50:51 PM »
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ohh why can't we have all the 297 >Cheesy

sahil
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« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2009, 04:54:02 PM »
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1. They would take a while to load when you try to post.

2. About a third are unique, and the others are color scheme variations etc of the unique ones.

Needs some sorting out.
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« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2009, 07:25:35 PM »
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By the thundering silence, I hope no one is put off by the nature of these discussions, and reduce (let alone stop) being active on the forum. Personally, I have made my reasons and motives as clear as I humanly could !  There is no hidden agenda, or ego !

I would hate to see this place become a "posh colony where everyone walks around in ties and eats their food with knives and forks", and there is a stigma towards being open and expressing personal opinions.  Those are not "forum"s.  Not only products and techniques be discussed; but issues, thoughts and opinions deserve equal opportunity to be openly addressed. I would prefer this be a local coffee shop, where almost anything under the sun is discussed (while preserving the respect for each another). Well at least, that is my opinion  >Cheesy

There are probably not enough items on the product or technology or build side that would keep such a forum an active place.   But for someone who visits the forum like once a day, I would rather see some bits of new information.  It is possible that I am overdoing it, but I prefer that than under-doing it !

Hey, I am being told I am not an aeromodeller on my face (which I thought I was!), and I like that openness Grin  And the reasons for the classification were well presented, and it was made clear that it is in a pure sense of the word.  What more can you ask for in such a forum !

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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2009, 11:05:37 AM »
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Dear Anwar,
i think you are a great & mature moderator. There is a need to steer the discussion when it gets too personel ( pardon the spelling) without locking the topic.
Now i feel there are various aspects to aeromodelling.
Flying is no doubt the ultimate goal.
Building is a very important aspect.
Understanding aerodynamics and equipment is probably fundamental.
Everyone probably has these component is differing ratios which is why we form a online as well as on field community. to get input from others in fields where we are defficient.

The extent to which one would build varies.
It is no doubt easier to set-up and ARF than build from a kit or plans.
But that does not mean that the ARF will definitely fly true. it needs to be checked out and trimmed etc.

As with life in general things are getting INSTANT . T-20 cricket. Very few families make pickles the way our grandmothers used to. We buy what we like. So why hold out against ARF builders.

The extent to which one is ready to build varies.
So instance one of our flyers in field had a new ASP 52 engine that snapped its crank pin after the 4th flight. He got a replacement which met with the same fate.  The engine would probably have ended up as spares Finally i took the engine to a machinist here who made a a new crank pin and changed the bearings. the engine runs fairly well, but there was no guarantee it would work even after the effort.

As has been pointed out, the older generation had to carve out props while we just buy them.

That doesn't make me more of and aeromodeller than the other guy who is simply a class apart.

but i agree with Ismail and Capt. Manish that there is a different thrill in building a plane and then watching it fly.

When i retire i am going to buy a mini lathe and mill and hand build engines the way they still do at hobby centre at Kolkatta. But that is 20 years down the line.
Avijit
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2009, 11:18:14 AM »
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Another fact is that all of us are % aeromodellers and we will continue to rely on this forum for answers and will continue to participate, report success/otherwise attempts at building/flying planes.

Possibly, we need a tag line or something that states all opinions are agreeable and that we can always agree to disagree vs. assuming that one opinion counts more or needs to.
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2009, 11:34:30 AM »
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Ideally, a/the moderator should not be a participant in discussions.  We don/t want to lose you Anwar, as a spirited participant ! So any other possibilites?
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2009, 12:03:11 PM »
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I did wonder if I was getting too personal, but still forged ahead knowing captain to be a hearty fellow who doesn't get offended easily by differing opinions. May be I was wrong in assuming that in this instance. There are a few other discussions I stayed away from lest my opinions be construed as being commercially motivated. I thought I was safe picking on Manish.
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2009, 12:18:00 PM »
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But Sushil, you have to see one thing.  A moderator says "NO, do not do that", or "That is NOT welcome here". I always said, "I disagree, and this is my view point, for such and such reasons".  This is my moderation, if you want to call it moderation.

I am coming to the realization that people are not ready for such discussions.  They always look at me as a "moderator", and a power above others.  People quit these discussion midway, because they fear something will get exposed, something will go wrong, someone will exercise power or someone will get hurt and leave scars.  I firmly believe none of this has to happen. 

Ismail and Captain made it clear that it is their opinion that a "true" aeromodeller would take a deeper interest in the hobby, which leads them to try at least some scratch design and builds. There is nothing wrong with that.  Does it raise the eye-brows of the rest 75% who do not go that far, and all of sudden realize that they have not really earned their title ? May be. But it is just the opinion of two people (or some people).  Depending on how much one knows, you can always decide that having a basic knowledge around the hobby is enough of a definition to be an aeromodeller.  Neither camp needs to feel bad about anything. 

What is disturbing is to see people leave discussions because they cannot reconcile between such viewpoints.  We are unable to "handle the truth"  (quoted from Jack Nicholson, "A Few Good Men"). Or we are way too cautious about others taking things in a wrong/personal sense.  We just need to realize that opening our minds a little bit more is all it takes to abandon the need for such caution.
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« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2009, 06:42:15 PM »
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Rajesh!
You made me break my vow  Grin
The post is just to clarify that I did not take your comments personally.
And also to clarify that my quitting the discussion was not for fear of being exposed. If that is what some one feels , then there is nothing I can do, every one has one you know what?
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Opinions


 
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2009, 06:52:11 PM »
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Captain -  The "exposing" part is only about the fear of offending others, in case that was not clear. And it was a general statement (like almost everything else is). A fear that would be accepted in general as a good quality, but holds one back from openly discussing anything.  And it is not just you, there are many who are not being themselves due to this reason. Point to be made: you would NEVER offend me (and I can't see anyone else getting offended either) if you had continued on the thread. I welcome you to continue on such discussions always.  And next time (there will be one!), please write "if that is what Anwar feels", instead of "if that is what someone feels". That is all I ask for.

Good to see your list of opinions !  Tongue 

I would love to know why you stopped the discussion abruptly though (please PM me, if you are uncomfortable about further discussions here).  Because I feel there may be something in it for me to learn.
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« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2009, 07:08:15 PM »
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Rajesh!
You made me break my vow  Grin
The post is just to clarify that I did not take your comments personally.

Glad to hear that  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2009, 07:30:22 PM »
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I guess a vow broken once is no good anymore so one more post to make the environment more lively.
How come there was not a single post from Sai?
Sai sir, are you out of action?
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« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2009, 10:56:55 AM »
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it appears Mr.sai is off line since 24th
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« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2009, 12:24:27 PM »
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Quote
People quit these discussion midway, because they fear something will get exposed, something will go wrong, someone will exercise power or someone will get hurt and leave scars.   

Not necessarily. Possibly "sanity and logic" (Anwar's words) seem to get lost along the way, or the topic has digressed or gone off on a tangent.



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« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2009, 12:51:14 PM »
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Anyone who thinks so should re-read this thread from the beginning.  It was a very interesting discussion, stopped abruptly for no apparent reason.

Or if there is a reason, point it out. If there is lack of logic, where is that seen ? If it went on a tangent, what tangent ?

All this proved again that we are more "average" than we think we are (and that goes for me first).

 
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« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2009, 01:14:52 PM »
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Quote
And I am taken aback when Sushil agreed that there is no logic in these threads.  I guess people are missing the big picture, that the logic is in the fact that these are "just diverse personal opinions within a bunch of like minded people and each one is arguing his point".

Having an opinion is not an argument by itself. It needs some application of "sanity and logic" to make it so.

That is the point I was trying to make, unsuccessfully, it appears.

And my comments were in general  and not pertaining to this, or any other, specific thread.

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« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2009, 01:18:07 PM »
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Agreed.  An opinion by itself is worth nothing.

But note the use of the word "point".  It is not just an opinion.  An opinion built on logic is what "making a point" refers to. And one persons "logic" may seem illogical to someone else.  But both should be able to freely discuss it, that is the whole point.

I can see one thing though.  People come, people go.  As long as this forum remains, it will be truely open, in the sense that people should be prepared to handle counter arguments.  When Captain said "just building and flying is lamantable", he should also have the open mind to to hear counter arguments to that. I am sure the Captain felt his point of view had 100% logic to it, while I am free to feel that it is completely insane with 0% logic to it.  Should I walk away  ? Or have a meaningful discussion (or least present an alternate view of the topic) while respecting each other ?  When I say Futaba 2,4 heat issue is not an concern for normal use, I should be ready to hear from others who can argue/prove the opposite.  When you say "I feel some people have the right to be always right", be prepared to be questioned about it.  If that is not the way things work, this is a dead forum; and I refuse to put my name on such a forum (however insignificant me or my name is).

As long as we do not lose respect for individuals and stoop to the level of uncivilized behavior (name calling etc), I will not prevent/interfere in any discussion. Call me an opinionated sicko, but this will remain the nature of this forum.  I don't care if I end up being the last person standing arguing with myself. I had a vision when I started out doing this, and this is just a part of a bigger goal.  We have no dearth of forums, and nobody is forced to do anything.  It does not cost more than $10 a month to create a forum. 

And I am not saying this on some pride derived from any percieved success of this forum.  It is not the end of the world if it goes away.  But for it to remain meaningful or successful, it has to preserve this open nature. That, along with an unwavering commitment to helping newcomers is what this forum is all about. Outside of these two things, there is no RC India.



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« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2009, 04:18:50 PM »
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dear Anwar,
starts feeling proud of you. I agree 100%.
ashta


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« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2009, 08:06:23 PM »
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This forum was started since there was s dire need for people (particularly beginners) to have access to commercial information. That aspect was not covered at all in the other forum(s).  If that basic need is satisfied elsewhere, the reason for existence of RC India gets diluted.

I am already seeing the other forum slowly turning a blind eye to commercial information.  Commercial information is not being deleted the same day, and people who post such information are not being banned. Now, even when members ask "such information should not be posted here, right?", the admins have let commercial information stay on.  

If I achieved that much change, I have achieved what I set out to do.  Who gives a damn about the future ?

This forum needs to have updated content, so that the forum shows up in the top results in Google searches etc, especially for newcomers. That is the motive behind keeping this forum an active place.  Otherwise they will end up elsewhere, wondering what kind of place/hobby is this where they cannot access any commercial information on what they are trying to do; and feel that this must be a hobby for some chosen/elite people.

Keeping this forum an active place requires a critical mass of members and discussions, which we may or may not have now.  If others cannot see this big picture, then I have failed in some ways; but God is my witness, that I have tried.
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« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2010, 05:34:59 PM »
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THIS IS THE BEST FORUM I HAVE EVER COME ACROSS.
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« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2010, 05:38:17 PM »
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What Anwar sir(bhai)has done is GREAT.I got a book from my uncle that was like 20 years old on aeromodelling.It made no sense to me.After rcindia,my knowlege has just spiked.All the people here are wonderful,have their own choices and nice to see that everybody is ready to speak openly.And yeah,I do want to see knowlegdeable guys bickering about something.(Now that Top Gear has ended season 15).
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« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2010, 05:38:41 PM »
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Sorry for the spellings.Too lazy to edit my own post.
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« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2010, 06:49:23 PM »
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Ok! I thought I had to pitch in and add my comments too! Smiley
This post is not intended to be offensive nor it is pointing out anybody's abilities or capabilities.
I read this entire thread which started like a nitro engine and mis-fired on its way up..
To be frank, in my point of view, any person who has the ability or the understandability to build something from scratch, locally found materials or internationally bought ARF kits is a hobbyist on his base!
Aero modeling and flying are rather titles given to our hobbies.
Its like being a mechanical engineer and working in a civil construction company. We are technically Mechanical Engineers in the end right ?  Head Scratching
In the same way, we are all hobbyists in our roots, some of us build and some fly and hence title ourselves as fliers, aero modelers!
If one is a heli flier and calls himself a aeromodeller, what and where is the harm? does that person not go through the same trouble or maybe more to get his heli into the air? leave alone his skills!
If someone scratch builds a plane and finds out that it wont fly with the best electronics around, does that too not mean that he is a aero modeler ?
But the base is our ability to learn from what we do, that interest and trouble we take to rethink what went wrong makes us a hobbyist!
the point I am trying to make is, all aeromodelers and all fliers, builders in the end share the same title!
"a hobbyist" Bow
I am a hobbyist, I declare it promptly! I build helicopters from ARF kits, I sit on my work table blowing some ESC's and jamming some servos, lastly making a chunk of electronics and frames fly! I also build planes. I remember I once made a scratch built Spitfire from no plans, just watched it on TV and made a few sketches and sanded the fuse on a chunk of thermocol, finally, the outcome ?
A unbalanced realistic looking plane, which lastly landed in my showcase! I remain, still a hobbyist and call myself an aero modeler, don't I?
So my friends, what I intend to say here is, that, no matter what our titles are or what we call ourselves, we remain hobbyists, and we are lucky to have that talent in us!
As someone said, we are that rare breed in India, and we are here on this forum to help and be helped, that's what a true supporter to the hobby does!
I joined this forum because I needed information on a little issue that I faced, finally with all the support(which I never thought would happen) hung on here and am planing to stay here.
So, lastly, I intend to let each and everyone know, that no matter what titles we give ourselves, we are all the same and share almost the same dream! To give wings to our hobby! Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

Regards,

Dorwin Grin
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« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2010, 06:50:49 PM »
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Why are you guys digging up old flames Giggle 

PS: BTW, this is one of my favorite threads on this forum Wink
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« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2010, 06:56:23 PM »
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No Anwar,
this thread is very important in learning and knowing many a things!
I meant no harm while I wrote the post, but I do think that we as humans do have the ability to scratch our minds a little and get out of situations where we get stuck in life sometimes!
Don't you call yourself a hobbyist as your base, Anwar?
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« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2010, 07:16:16 PM »
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We are all hobbyists.  I thought I was also an aeromodeller until some folks (who felt passionately that scratch or kit building is a basic requirement for the same) suggested that I (and many others like me) may not really qualify. BTW, these were and are good friends. In any case, it is all opinions.  For me, building and flying are just two aspects of the hobby, and there it ends.

Plus all these are seasonal.  Someone who does not enjoy building now might turn to building when age catches up, and tinkering at home is much easier than trying to fly planes when the vision starts to blur and the fingers start to shiver Smiley 

Just try to help one another... in that lies true achievements.
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« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2010, 09:20:46 PM »
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I feel it doesnt matter what you call yourself. One may be very good at scratch buildind and another at assembling helis so what? The heli guy will appreciate his work (which is definately not anywhere in the neighbourhood of easy!) and a scratch builder will love his creations. At the end of the day each one is good at what he loves and being an aeromodeller or not doesnt count. Both have unique talent and knowledge and i appreciate both equally.
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