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« on: August 22, 2012, 08:14:41 PM »
S_K
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[Admin Note]  The issues discussed arise from a misunderstanding or error on the part of the buyer, and there is no wrong doing on the part of the LHS. After maligning Sandeep, this user has gone missing

Respected forum members -

I am a beginner in RC field and want to start with a cheap plane setup, which would be quite forgiving at the same time. After reading few posts/threads on our forum, I decided to go with a coro plane from Mr.Bajare.

1.Today I got some free time and so I decided to visit his workplace and pick up the plane. As soon as me and my friend went there, he showed me a USED/OLD airframe and tried to convince me that it was a tried and tested, proven airframe..!!!! Bang Head Bang Head
 - I agree with that.

2.The plane was indeed in flight worthy condition, but my only objection was that it was a USED/OLD one, which I did not want to buy. Its wing was in good condition, but the fuse looked to have taken quite a beating, and was not at all in good asthetics. It was taped at many places, had become a bit blackish in the front and the front of fuselage seem to have broken at some point of time in the past (this is MY OPINION) and was fixed with epoxy(this was told by Mr.Bajare).
 - My contention

3.Mr.Bajare maintained that it had happened due to testing and that SINCE I AM A BEGINNER, I SHOULD GO FOR A TESTED PLANE.
 - I accept the point about a tested plane, BUT WHY NECESSARILY ONLY THAT PARTICULAR PLANE?? Bang Head Bang Head Even the new plane could have been tested and then handed over to me - which I would have accepted WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

4.At the same time, THERE WAS another NEW fuselage of the same model which I wanted to buy. But the wing for that fuse was of different dimensions and so Mr. Bajare said that it will take 2-3 days more to complete that NEW plane, and hence PERSISTENTLY INSISTED me to go with the OLD/USED one, which I obviously refused. Till this point of time, Mr.Bajare was quite uncomplaining and tolerant, and so were me and my friend.
 - I was READY TO WAIT for the new plane to get ready and tested, and make full payment that the seller had quoted - and the same was made amply clear to Mr.Bajare. This plane was really a good one - no sign of rough landings and blackish, epoxied nose of the fuselage, unlike the one which Mr.Bajare was KEEN on selling to me.

5.I was not at all keen on buying a OLD/USED plane and pay the price for a new one. Since Mr.Bajare had left me no other option BUT to go for the OLD/USED plane, I asked for some discount on the OLD/USED plane. I know that the original price he quoted was very reasonable.
 - WHY should I as a buyer go for a plane which I know (or atleast which appeared) to be USED/SECONDHAND when I want a NEW, TESTED and DOCILE plane? Huh? Huh?
 - Even if I do accept his theory, am I not within my right to ask for some compromise(in price) from his end when I am ready to compromise my requirement(of NEW, TESTED and DOCILE plane)?

6.This is when Mr.Bajare lost his cool - he ABRUPTLY ended the conversation, AND said that I WOULD NOT GET EITHER OF THE PLANE.
 - This obviously did not go down very well with me and I walked out alongwith my friend WITHOUT SAYING a single word.
 - There was ABSOLUTE LACK OF COURTESY on part of Mr.Bajare just on hearing my demand for SOME (we didnot negotiate, so cant quantify the amount) DISCOUNT on SO CALLED TESTED, PROVEN PLANE (my first impression - USED AND OLD PLANE). By this, I dont mean to say that it will not fly - it may/can fly very well - BUT ONE SHOULDNOT MAKE FOOL OF ANOTHER BY MAKING TO BELIEVE HIM AN ACTUALLY OLD/USED THING TO BE A BRAND NEW ONE..
 - Just because I am a beginner, does it mean that I MUST ACT as per SELLER's wish? EITHER MY WAY, OR THE HIGHWAY - THIS WAS THE EXACT ATTITUDE OF MR.BAJARE.

7. I am totally against seeking discounts - I really do appreciate Mr.Bajare's great experience in building rc planes and think that he should MOST DEFINITELY get his share of dues for his commendable work of providing rc planes at low prices. BUT at the same time, he SHOULD NOT RESORT TO PETTY SELLING TECHNIQUES. The real worth of that OLD/USED plane was definitely not equivalent to a NEW (and OBVIOUSLY "TRIED and TESTED, PROVEN") airframe.

I definitely hold no grudge against Mr.Bajare. I only think that he should not have said that "YOU WILL NOT GET EITHER OF THE PLANE" WHEN I was actually ready to buy the NEW (AND TESTED) plane at the price that he had quoted to me. Although I have not dealt with other LHSes, I have certainly heard/read very good things about some like RCBazaar, RCD, Hobbysea, RCelectro and so on..(sorry if I have missed out some others - there are many other REALLY GOOD LHSes - just that I dont remember these right now). I would definitely not even dare to ask for discounts with any of these, given their reputation of supplying EXCELLENT quality (as best as may be possible to them) rc stuff to India's rc enthusiasts. They have very good (if not the best at the moment, but ever improving) customer support services and do value their customers a lot. So please dont misunderstand me and create a perception about me that "I will always ask for discounts" - that is not the case.

I asked for a reduced price for a product which I thought was a used product, i.e. not FIRSTHAND.I am not the kind of person who will make an issue out of nothing. Even in this incident, the thing that hurt me the most is the attitude of EXPLOITING A BEGINNER LIKE ME WITH UTMOST DISREGARD TO COURTESY. PLEASE VALUE YOUR CUSTOMERS, BAJAREJI!!

This is true and full narration of my experience as a beginner in dealing with Mr.Bajare.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:03:34 PM by rcpilotacro » Logged
 

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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 08:58:09 PM »
peter.gomes
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Hi S_K,

If you are really seriously thinking of joining this hobby then Pls read more about the Basic flight theory,understand the principal of flight, Read more on the forum & other fourm,What is your exact interest ,all this is well explained in this forum.keep asking question,many will help you.

There are many LHS in India.Just forget about what happened,think about the future.

So welcome to our family & have a great positive start.

regards
Peter

 
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 09:29:58 PM »
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S_K

You are the buyer and you are the king, you are well within your right to ask for discount/ buy one get one free etc etc.

the moment it is an used one, its value goes down quite a bit.

Start with a glider or something which can take a lot of beating and yet flies well, something like an Easy Star, Sky Surfer etc.

i am sure you are visiting the field, meeting up with Amit, Prady and gang.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:04:52 PM by rcpilotacro » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 10:05:50 PM »
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Strange that people still are not convinced that using the AXN/EZStar/SkySurfer/Bixler etc as the first plane is the most effective way to start, especially if you are on your own.  Scratch building is also a great way, but then YOU have to build, not buy built stuff from others.

Wonder where this is lost in translation on this forum Shocked
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 10:30:10 PM »
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Look on the bright side. You now have reason to look at the other options.
Thanks for sharing your experience Smiley
Please post what you are looking for in another thread, i am sure help will reach you Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 11:03:05 AM »
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S_K,

Throw all bad experiences from your mind against any person so that this hobby will not become bitter to you. Just remember that you must not do the same to another newcomer.

Good Luck.
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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 11:39:08 AM »
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Hi S_K,

There are good and bad people all around. Passion for this hobby should not die at this stage if some of them react this way.

As a consumer, you have full right to ask and question all aspects, what i would suggest and request you from my experience and rightly pointed out by senior guys here is "use" this forum to understand and "take help"  Help Me before you plan to invest.

While there are some great LHS around to get you a standard product at competitive prices, you can still leverage help which you can get over here in terms of right direction. Researching is key for any newbie in this hobby, right from sourcing.

I personally bought some articles initially paying 8~10 times more! than available today at most LHS though they were lesser value items but still... so researching and questioining really helps a lot.

Finally, i would suggest you to go with something like Easy Stay or Sky Sufer as suggested by Gusty and then build on that.

At times things do happen for good  Grin   Thumbs Up

Thanks
Sandeep
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 03:40:51 PM »
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S_k.  This is a regular story in this hobby.. It was ur days thats it.... watch out when buy something nextime.. Trust me u havent seen the frauds here..

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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 03:52:45 PM »
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S_K

You are the buyer and you are the king, you are well within your right to ask for discount/ buy one get one free etc etc.

'Jao tumhe ek bhi model nahi dunga' (go away i wont give you even one model) is an old aeromodellors attitude, those breed are dead and gone or on the verge of it.


Yes!! Indeed... gone are the days of abject socialism when you had to wait for 1 year for (then) VSNL to give you telephone, wait for 1 year to get scooter from Bajaj. There are many  option today, you can walk down to many LHS, order from LHS from other city, and if you have patience to haggle with Customs, order from HK/US/Europe.

Though people have been historically learned flying on Nitro High wingers, today learning the basic flying to get orientation, landing etc right, you can start with simple electric gliders like Easy Star, AXN Floater, Sky Surfer. They are lot safer, sturdy and free from hassles of a Nitro Engines. Once you learn the basic,  you can go for a proper Nitro model.
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 10:17:28 PM »
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I am very thankful to all of you for your suggestions. I definitely hold no ill will against Mr.Bajare - neither today nor before posting this incident, but just wanted to share the incident with all of you. This incident had to happen and it happened.
I have surely learnt some lessons -

Firstly, I will head to the pancard club and meet Amit, Prady, Vinayak and others as well as witness the action, &
Secondly, Go for either AXN/EZstarII/Sky Surfer as has been pointed out by the seniors.

Will surely try some scratch builds in the meantime and seek your help.
Thanks.
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 10:43:28 PM »
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Dear S_K, welcome to the forum and I wish you an enjoyable experience here. That being said, let us not fool ourselves by saying that one holds no ill will against Mr. Bajare. I am not taking any sides here and I don't know either of you. All that I can say here is that, if what you have detailed in your anguished post above has actually happened, I would harbour a HUGE ill will against the person. Also, if I didn't feel that way, I wouldn't pour out my grief in public in my fourth post here. Sorry if I am being blunt about this.

As I said, welcome to the forum - there are very few saints here, the rest of us are crazy, passionate, quick on the draw human beings. And we respect people who call a spade a spade and later don't back down diplomatically. Peace.
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 10:56:54 PM »
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too straight forward.... Salute

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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 11:06:53 PM »
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Guilty as charged. That's the way I am.

However, if what has been reported, has actually happened - it is unpardonable. Thumbs Down
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2012, 09:22:43 AM »
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VC,
Let me tell you that whatever I have reported is the TRUTH. This incident happened the day before yesterday and is the OBVIOUS AND PATENT TRUTH.

Having said that, I think that you have put forth the right and straightforward views in Reply no.10 and correctly pointed out the contradiction about "pouring my grief in public" and at the same time "harbouring no ill will" against Mr.Bajare. This is with all the due respect to you, no offence intended.

I have no agenda to malign Mr.Bajare here on the forum. I shared this incident on the forum -
Firstly, to make you all (especially the newcomers) aware of my experience in dealing with him, so that the newbies like me would be somewhat cautious while they deal with him. I was tried to be fooled, but I somehow managed not to fall prey to the claims made to me;

&

Secondly, hoping to make Mr.Bajare follow the dictates of his conscience (which I dont know would be achieved or not - I dont know Mr.Bajare just as you dont know either of us here in Pune).
If he doesnot act again the way he did with me, with any newcomer, I would - and to that matter, everyone (sorry, but I take this liberty in good faith) who might have fallen into such traps in the past (traps set up by any seller and not necessarily Mr.Bajare) - be more than happy.

What happens with many beginners like me is that we dont know many things. We may just blindly follow the seller's advice and repent it later on. So, this is where the importance of forum is highlighted - where lots of information sharing takes place and we get to know the fellow RC enthusiasts in our locality, our country and even some foreign nationals. Our forum will surely help a newcomer to take an informed decision. I reported my incident only with this intention.
And I really think that the count of my posts doesnot matter considering the above - the number of posts would increase over the time. Again, this is only my humble submission, no offence intended.
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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2012, 09:39:05 AM »
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S_K

recently, in spite of being in this hobby for a while i got taken for a ride, later as i probed, i realised this gentleman had managed to take some reputed and some budding LHS for a ride too, (http://www.rcindia.org/rc-outlets-and-resellers/beware-of-dealing-with-mr-pradeep-www-pvamodels-in/), this happended because one person who was all praises for him, bought a models on his tall claims, he did not get what he ordered for, the victim did not report the matter and the seller's brush with making promises, taking money and not living upto it continued. Gusty, RCBazaar, RCBharat and countless other got roped into his sweet talking ruse.

If only the first person had the courage and reported the matter, so many of us would not have go through what we went through.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:05:49 PM by rcpilotacro » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2012, 10:16:11 AM »
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If only the first person had the courage and reported the matter, so many of us would not have go through what we went through.

Very true Augustine sir! Enduring injustice is equally bad as making injustice.

I feel really bad for you S_K. Can't imagine what would have happened if I was there in your place. This would have been etched in my mind for ever.

However, don't fret. There are good people too in this hobby. If you carefully go through the forum posts, you can find them even without actually meeting them personally. These people (VC sir, Augustine sir, Kalyan sir, Anwar sir, Sameer, Roopesh sir, to name a few) share their knowledge freely without any reservation. Those with commercial/selfish intent cannot do this. Just go through the posts by these members and you'll realize what I'm trying to tell you.

Knowledge and wealth grows when it is shared freely.
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2012, 10:23:24 AM »
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I have had many deals in the past with sandeep sir,and nowhere he sounded the way he is being described here.i am also a beginner but after going through this post couldnot stop myself from sharing my experience.being a beginner,i call him whenever i am in trouble.he treats me very nicely.all i can say that SANDEEP SIR is a true airomodellar and a very nice person from heart.                                                         
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 10:26:47 AM »
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i think sandeep sir must come forward with his version.
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2012, 12:57:28 PM »
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Rcpilotacro, after reading that thread, I really dont understand how and why people act in such a way, even after knowing that they are living in an internet era - where information sharing prevails. Hard and honest work for years and years do take a blow due to such an act. I really pray that the remaining amount would be refunded to you at the earliest.

Thanks Vishal for your kind words. Avispad Build Log by you and VC are really inspiring me to start with an avispad.

Maserati, I have mentioned in my first post itself that I myself as well as Mr.Bajare were absolutely well behaved till the very end, when I requested for a reduction in price of the plane which (in my opinion) seem to be USED/OLD. That was the point when he ABRUPTLY ended the conversation and said that I would get NEITHER OF THE 2 PLANES, even when I was ready to pay in full the amount quoted by himself for that plane - I was ready to wait for 2-3 days (which he himself told me would be required by him) since he had to finish that plane and then test it.

I am sorry, I have actually missed out this part - Mr.Bajare told me that since I am a beginner, a localite and visited his place for pickup, he was insisting me to go for a completely built plane, and that a completely built plane could not be shipped to some other place outside Pune. But that cant be a reason to COMPEL me to go for that particular plane (which I believed to be USED/OLD from its appearance). I was ready to wait for 2-3 days to get the new plane ready and flight worthy, and I categorically said it to Mr.Bajare.


Having said that, even I think that Mr.Bajare should turn up, rebut and post the pics of THAT VERY PLANE which he was keen on selling to me. I dont have any pics of the plane that I was offered, rather COMPELLED to buy, and so I would give out its description :

1.It had a red fuselage (coro - model : E-bird pusher) with almost black nose (some yellow material was epoxied to the nose, which had turned blackish probably due to some hard landings). Even the battery cushioning (some kind of thin foam/sponge) was not looking new, had worn out at places and had an overall dusty/blackish look.

2.Even the plastic tube running from the front to the back was not looking new, was randomly taped at 2-3 places (absolutely no taping pattern implying that it was not taped as decals or for enhancing the appearance) showing that it was indeed a USED plane. The plastic tube had a dusty, blackish appearance, as against the other new fuse which was under construction.

3.Also, the red coro of the horizontal and vertical stabilizers were looking very OLD. The overall appearance of the plane or rather the fuse coro was that it was absolutely not looking new as was claimed to me. The wing, as I have reported in the first post itself, was looking good.
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2012, 02:39:29 PM »
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hi,

Sorry guys, my pc had crashed and hence i could not get too this.

all said and done. this guy S_k is very clever and does not seem to understand what he is talking about.

I have spent my life as an aeromodeller and have trained many hobbyists. As a profession it is my way of earning bread and butter to sustain my life.

Agreed coro is a cheap material but my ideas and technical skills are not cheap. i have spent more than 20yrs in this hobby and have gone out of way to help those who really needed my help.

My Spad ARFS for sale column was purely meant for the modeller who wanted to experiment with alternate material and and not for the cheap modellers who are trying to ask for more and want to spend less.

Aeromodelling is a hobby where your heart speaks and not the money. This guy approaches me for a model and when i suggested him one which had done a few flights and was fully trimmed for a a thousand bucks. i dont think i have made a very big criminal offence. where i have already mentioned that this is my profession and i cannot offer my models at a cheap price where i cannot survive. ( if a horse make friend with the hay what will he eat )

Frankly speaking I did not like the attitude of this boy and hence i made it clear that he was not keen on learning but rather wanted a beautiful girl to play around and not a model to learn.

In my 20yrs of lifetime this is the stupidest guy i have met and i feel like laughing. Without making any deal with me   not even having cheated. And on top a fool who does not kknow the ABC of Aeromodelling goes out on the forum and starts writing against me.

I deeply hurted and this guy has no right to speak against me. i have not paid him any money neither have i charged him any. If i build my models i decide whether to sell it or not. noone can force me.

As a beginner i too have gone thru a hell and will never forget what i paid to learn aeromodelling. Today if i am standing on my feet it is becoz of this hobby and i am proud of it.

I would request the administrator to kindly remove this thread coz i am in no way going to hear things against me. I am not a LHS or a very big seller. but trying to earn my bread and butter in the smallest possible way.

Those who have the habit of giving blank remarks would request you to kindly see both sides of the coin and then talk.

nothing much to say. but it really hurts for doing nothing.
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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 02:56:55 PM »
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Human mind is like a parachute, works when open



to add further.

if people cannot afford to buy an axn floater, easy star or sky surfer and are looking at cheap models to get into aeromodelling. There is nothing that can be done. This guy expects him to be treated like a king. For me any beginner in this field of aviation must have the patience of learning.

THis guy failed in his very first step. I think he needs to do some lesson on art of living and not art of aeromodelling.

Agustine, VC and others a kind request. pls do not get into personal matters. I have not crossed my line and hope that u too do not . I am a pure aeromodeller and want to remain as it is.

A fool starts writing and the fools start following. 

EK agyani dusrey agyani ko agyanta ki kuwey mein dakhaklta hai.

Hope all understand.

sandeep
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Sandeep Bajare
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sandeepbajare@gmail.com
 

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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2012, 03:06:30 PM »
rcpilotacro
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City: Lucknow
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Practice, and only Practice will make you perfect



I did not like the attitude of this boy and hence i made it clear that he was not keen on learning but rather wanted a beautiful girl to play around and not a model to learn.

..And on top a fool who does not kknow the ABC of Aeromodelling goes out on the forum and starts writing against me.

...this is the stupidest guy i have met and i feel like laughing.


QED..Sandeep, this is what exactly THIS BOY is accusing you of , demeaning

Please for the love of god tell me how can you call anyone a 'Fool' 'Stupid' when he has been courteous in stating what he has.

If i build my models i decide whether to sell it or not. noone can force me.

Absolutely ! Does it mean you can demean somebody ?

As a beginner i too have gone thru a hell and will never forget what i paid to learn aeromodelling.

If you had a unhappy childhood, does it mean your pupils need to as well? when i was learning flying (real jet flying, not aeromodelling) i went through hell which you cant imagine ever, but when i became a flying instructor and instructor and trained 60+ pilots, i remembered my bad days and ensured the same did not happen to my pupils,

PLEASE
Sandeep, you need to be civil about it, I implore,

PS
Correct me if i am wrong
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A Great pilot will practice until he canít get it wrong.
 

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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2012, 03:08:41 PM »
VC
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Mr. Bajare, am I to assume that you are calling me a fool? You seem to be rather liberal about bestowing adjectives upon others. While they may take it lying down, I assure you that I will not.

I did not comment on any personal matter - it ceased to be personal / private the moment it was posted here. No one is crossing any line by commenting on something that is posted here on the forum. And if your knowledge of the English language allows, you will notice that nowhere have I taken any sides.

Please tone down your language in future.
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« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2012, 03:19:09 PM »
rcpilotacro
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This guy expects him to be treated like a king.

of course, he is the customer, Do you have an iota of idea of the adage 'Customer is the king', he didn't come to learn from you, he came to buy from you.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 01:06:58 PM by rcpilotacro » Logged

Gusty's Hangar and Introduction.

A Good pilot will practice until he gets it right,
A Great pilot will practice until he canít get it wrong.
 

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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2012, 03:22:50 PM »
vishalrao
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Plane Addict



Thanks Vishal for your kind words. Avispad Build Log by you and VC are really inspiring me to start with an avispad.

If you have someone to guide you during take off and landing then I would definitely suggest you go with it. If you are all alone, then a pusher model like easy star/sky surfer would be highly recommended. As you are definitely going to crash the plane while learning and a tractor model (front motor/prop) may not survive a nose dive.

Try posting a request for a second hand easy star/sky surfer in these forum and you might get lucky. I think Amit (SunLikeStar) had posted his Easy Star (new I guess) for sale some time back.
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