Mpowershopping - http://www.mpowershopping.in is touting to be an LHS from Chennai. I had a very bad experience from them. I had ordered for an ESky 0404 35MHZ  TX without crystal from them for replacement purposes. I had made upfront payment as requested by them on 19th of December 2009. They are yet to ship me the item in question. The individual in question, one Mr.Ganesh even gave me a fake courier airway bill number. They are not picking up the phone if I dial up from my personal numbers. To me it seems a clear case of swindle. In this business, where a lot is done based on trust, they have let me down. They have even put banners in this forum.

On my part I have learned 2 lessons
.Never engage a local LHS before checking up with somebody in this forum.
.Always order if possible based on COD, paypal or some kind of escrow payment system.

I believe that such behavior is detrimental to other legitimate sellers interests and should be discouraged.

Banners have been deactivated pending resolution of the said issues.

Do you know, they might be be acting **Just** like mediator and the shipment is coming from Hobby City instead!!! HC has something called "Drop Ship (from) address". In this program, they provide their Web API which a middle men can use in thier site and show the **entire** inventory of HC on their page!!!(with stock and price, that could be modified) . The other shop I have raised question about is 20North.com - they look equally phony too, with unbelievably huge inventory (like mother of Amazon/BestBuy/CompUSA/REI and all online shop combined)

Once you pay the amount(of course! not HC price but the dearly L.H.S price, even though the shipment is not local, which is the whole point of going to LHS) and the actual order goes to HC (Hobby City/King) who take their time and ship the item without leaving a trace that its been shipped from HC. One thing they can't hide is may be Hong Kong Post.

So fellas, with the hobby slowly gaining momentum (thanks to Heli's and EP), we would see so many phony hobby shops coming up , who would only kill the spirit of the trusted 6-8 LHS we have today. If you encounter any such "Pay to LHS, Ship from IHS" incidents, keep us informed and we *Should* discourage such sellers from 'eating the cake and have it' (I mean take the LHS booty and leave us to face all customs frills/wait time).

Good job Anto!!

They might be acting mediator, but definitely not using international site DropShip like HC, Since it will go through customs, and will be airparcel etc etc. Probably once we order, only then they might be placing orders, getting it into their hands and then ship it to us.

I was told by the proprietor that this is not his primary business but spurred by his R/C interests. He said the TX is from a Comanche set he had which he had exchanged with somebody and the TX is surplus. Knowing that most LHS in India are small single individual enterprises largely driven by a passion for the hobby, I thought that this was not uncommon.

I am at loss to understand why he behaved as he did, since this could be easiest way to spoil the business. So I waited for a month to elicit any kind of response from him, but he kept on playing hooky (not taking my phone or answering to SMS etc..)

BTW, there is nothing wrong with importing after the customer confirms the order and makes the payment.  Some stores claim it as a strength (Rotor in Chennai was doing it), but they do make it clear that such items will have a longer delay in terms of when the item is shipped. I totally support this type of operation, because it protects the interests of both the customer (he gets more product choices, usually at better prices as there is less of "dead stock price" issue, and the store takes care of customs etc), and it is good for the store that they do not need to keep inventory that can turn into dead stock, and can offer more items.

All that is needed is honesty/clarity between the parties as to approximate delivery dates.

But if this guy is selling stuff that he's been using then thats not even an LHS. Its like ppl selling stuff on this forum. Maybe went out of business, but even that must be made clear to buyers!!!

Thats a standard business practice of 'Order in Advance' i.e "The item is not in stock, pay now and we would get for you". I my self have been bugging Mr Sanjeev to get some EP ARF in advance, in the same mode, but he doesn't seem to deal with those manufacture/distributer. Sad.

But what I have pointed out is about the HC's 'Drop ship merchant information' Funda, where we customers are cheated by the so called LHS, as the LHS takes with the margin money, places the order on our behalf from HC (automated Robot, say) and then we are left with prolong wait (Rotor may bundle their other order with ours and use expedited shipping), and sub sequent Custom hassle (as the shipping address is still ours and the LHS is totally out of the scene).

I would call some one 'An' LHS who puts some of his money, takes responsibility till the goods reaches your door, taking all the custom bull shit himself (thus the 'margin'). One is a better LHs if he puts more money and store best/most demand items and ships as soon as we pay. Some one who uses tactic of API's such as HC and just act as 'Agent'/Dalal , doing nothing but forwarding your order to HC is totally against the spirit of an LHS.

I am not going for a conviction against MPower. What I am asking is if someone has already ordered from them and see sign of such tactic, its better to raise an alarm. I would rather directly order from HC rather than paying the margin to such tout.

I am really impressed by you Anwar bhai for the quick precautionary measure you took. We would glad to see their banner back again, given they come clean. One more LHS!. But if not, its better that hobbyist money is saved from them as there are many students and not 'So' filthy rich (masses) here, who would like to have best bang for their bucks and lost to touts.

You can order from HC directly, but there are certain things like radio that is better left to LHS to deal with the customs.

Guys..  We need to look at this all LHSes in a more practical way.  Yes, there are good ones and not so good ones.  Even many of the not so good ones are not so by intention, it is because of failures in planning, execution and finally, market conditions.

One does not get a full understanding of running such a business, unless one has tried.  You do not have to run an LHS, just anything that involves trading and physical items in stock.  Trust me, I have been part of such a family, so I know.

The first part is the number of customers.  You all know where the Indian RC scene stands on that.

Next comes the choice of products.  Every LHS "thinks" they are bringing in what is sellable.  Sometimes they are right, and some times they are wrong.  

Now comes the most important part.  Anything that they are unable to sell become "dead stock".  An year or two in the business, and you have an inventory that is worth lakhs !  On top of this, there is the "delay factor".  All items get "phased out" either in terms of features or in terms of "price" with time.  So an LHS which bought an item at market prices and was sellable at that time, is now stuck with an item that is overpriced or under-featured

To top it all off, there is competition from external sources also.  If you put these in perspective, it is not difficult to see why we can get four of the same thing from Hobbycity for the price of one locally.  Most of the time, the case is that you could get at most 2 of the same item when it was originally offered by the LHS.  But as time passes, the prices drop on one side, and stays same on the other side.

Some stores hold "clearance sales" and significant discounts to reduce dead stock. Others offer "value bundles" so that the some of the older items move out at the expense of reduced margins from newer items.  The better you are able to do this as an LHS, you are able to "survive".

All of it boils down mostly to the number of customers (and partly to the product selection by LHSes).  

The number of customers directly boils down to the Product selection and pricing.

I always want perfect piece of equipment for a given price, who dosent? like the HXT900 for example. So if LHS stored such items only at reasonable price and reasonable shipping, I would have brought them.

But If the LHS claims their servos are equivalent to HXT900 but different name, I would still hesitate to buy, because I never know and there are no comments by other customers. So it had to be Exactly HXT900!!!

Second, Again the price can be brought down, there is no need to show 30 Percent duty at all to customers as they wont be paying legally for sure. If they were paying legally then they cant import radios at all as its banned. So I am pretty sure LHS know what they have to do to attract customers. Its finally the LHS who lose, not the customers. So the ball is in their court.

No, I am not blaming the LHS. I am helping them with suggestions. I would love to buy from LHS if the above reasons mentioned were implemented. Who wouldn't like to support other buddy member of their own country? If I was given a chance to open a LHS, I wouldn't have dared. Its not easy. . Again If I would have opened, then I would try to attract customers, Not that some LHS have not tried this by giving an expensive receiver free. But thats not enough. Pricing of ALL the products should be reasonable. If pricing of Half the products were more, they I will rather get from HC.

No, Again  Iam not blaming the LHS. I am just trying to tell LHS what a customer is expecting from them. I understand you CANNOT compete with HC, but you can definitely come nearer, so that we can start buying from you.

Again there are problems I can't see what LHS have faced. So I rather not comment on the LHS topic further at all. Pricing and product selection, shipping were just suggestions to LHS.

But it again if you take the egg and chicken discussions thats going on from decades on other threads there is nothing customers can do. I wouldn't like to make any more comments as I believe I have already suggested what has to be done in the fewest steps possible

1)Ask customers what they want, what like to be stored. There can be 1000 threads opened for this and Anwar wont have any problems.
2)Keep the price on all prducts resonable. A LITTLE more then HC is always expected and normal.
3)Keep at least the fast moving stuff in stock. I wanted to pick some stuff from LHZ to avaoid shipping but they are out of stock since months. Now all that money went to HC.
4)Keep shipping reasonable for non delicate Items like wires, screws etc. IF the shipping from LHS and HC is same, whats the point?
5)Come up with innovative Ideas. HC sells all screw bags with 100 pieces each, who wants that much. You put different size screws 20, 20, 20, 20, 20 pieces each in a bag. I would never buy screws from HC then. These are some basic suggestions ideas. The moss package from Sai is one example.

Come on LHS you can do better in spite of all the hurdles.

All this time to type rather than going to office(its getting late) is to help LHS. Not to blame them. Hope my comments are considered +vely. I have no Hatred towards them.

I am more than happy to share my HC wish list. They have the best things I have selected out from the whole site.

I believe you have misunderstood how this works.  Just because a radio does not have "complete" approvals, does not mean that they do not have to pay customs during import.  The way certain things work in our country, the completeness of paperwork is very often not important, as compared to such items being sources of tax/funds.  Again, this is another topic which we are better off not discussing much.

Anwar,

Lets take a look at the price example. HC sells a 3S1P 1800mAH 30C at about Rs. 850-900 whereas the similar config LiPO is sold at 1900-2000 range by the LHS. Shipping cost in both cases is extra. So, on the price front the cost seems to be almost double. Yes, the LHS has lot of overhead, customs and other expenses, but as a buyer, am I supposed to be aware or considerate about it?

So the way it works for many is that when one needs to purchase substantial number items so that the price of shipping is within 10-15% of the item cost, then a direct purchase from HC or similar site becomes worthwhile; given that most of the time we do not pay customs for personal use. In such a case the LHS is mainly restricted to smaller/single pcs sale at a time which adds to their problems.

I guess it all boils down to the choices one has and the cost of ownership as defined by the price of goods, shipping cost and the time it takes to reach your door. There is another aspect which is the after sales service in terms of replacements of defective goods etc. We have already in a separate thread seen the response/lack of it from Pay Less Fly More with Gaurav having received a defective product and now this. At the end of the day each LHS has to behave line a business entity and offer value to customers in order to survive.

Regards

 
 

 

Interesting to see that this discussion seems to be between members who have them selves had a very limited exposure to dealing with LHS based on  what   they have posted till now .They are making noise on a matter on which they have  very little exposure

    the vast majority of members who deal with us seem to be  silent  this again is an interesting fact .

BTW one  deal and one  persons experience  can be a negative  among so many that have gone  right .

The above  is a gross over reaction especially by those with limited exposure to dealing with us .

The  incident  is a gross injustice to antojk and there is no justification for Ganesh to  stop all communication with the buyer after receiving payment .

Just thought I would like to highlight this interesting fact

Sai

I did not suggest buying at double the cost or more.  I was trying to reason out why it ends up being double the cost; where most people think it is duties + shipping + margin and does not give due credit to the "old / dead stock" issue.  

Like the hobby shop people have pointed out multiple times here itself, you can find examples of the same item having double the price a few months before in Hobbycity itself.  The difference is that they sell them off, and the new stock is cheaper (from the manufacturer), while here is continues at the old price due to slow movement.  

So what I was trying to say is... before we whine about the "exorbitant" LHS prices, we need to consider such realities.  At the same time LHSes should try to assess the situation better, and try to move stock with incentives / offers; so as to minimize this problem.

You have to spend even more time on the forum   Because the vast majority is "just silent"... period ! 

It is not issue specific, such is human nature.

Anwar,

In no way I am questioning the price issue. Each seller local or international is free to decide on the price just as the buyer has a choice of procuring from a seller of his/her choice. It is true that I have limited exposure in the RC procurement 1 local (rcforall) and 1 international (HC), but I do purchase other items online.  So the value proposition that I was talking about is to do with the overall price/service package and not limited only to price consideration.

Further, lot of folks are buying online, but few are discussing their experiences. Let me also say that I am quite happy with both the sellers that I have dealt with. However, with only negative remarks coming in for the local purchases, one does get skeptical.

An important factor is just plain numbers. HC and others of their ilk have a turnover that can only be imagined.

I am a distributor for some high end audio products and our turnover of one of the products is 0.1% of their international business! The small quantities involved push up shipping costs. Add inventory holding costs with the high interest rates in India and you may - just - possibly begin to understand the situation. Of course, there are good and not so good (price, service, quality) stores. But that would be true of any trade.

Except for engines - simply because what I wan't is not available locally - I have purchased almost exclusively from LHS. The exceptions were purchases from fellow aeromodellers and a few kits (not ARFs).

LHS, I sympathise with  you. Keep your chin up and the flags flying !

Sushil

As I said those making the noise are any way not the ones who buy big time from us  .

Opposite are many many more   so not really an issue.

Sai

Sai,
I do not think you have ever received a negative comment about your dealing but are you sure all LHS are as good in their dealings?

Not really Mr Sai, unless you consider only yourself the 'Origina'la LHS'    by consulting only your records. There are LHS 'Local' to many cities. And in the same lines, don't you think you are the only LHS so active, apart from occasional Notifications/announcements from other LHS ? As if they don't care ?

Anyway much of tussle in this thread has moved towards the price and shipping which is the most sensitive factor. And these things becomes apparent the moment you open the LHS site. Many people just shoo away from there itself and never get the 'real'  experience of actually buying!

And I second Vinay's point on 'branded' parts. I mean HC has beautifully created a trusted user base of their own /promoted bands even in quality sensitive markets like Europe/US. People swear by their outrunners and servos etc. I can't trust a LHS Re-branded(mostly due to low user base) item unless I seek review from Forum/local club member (Only regarded members like Mr Rao speak about them). Why don't you just reveal the real brand name so that we can at least Google and see some review. I guess their is some harmony  regarding prices among senior members and they wont much question the steep price of similar items - the newbies like me would slowly understand this. Its much honest to disclose things than hide them.

Agree with rcforall. I wonder how people can write so many words on many threads with so little application of their brains. An average smart person would have learned from their experience with the goverment bodies (posted on this forum itself). A little thinking and research before shooting off their mouths would have made them realize why things are the way they are. Could be youthful naivety or altruistic views, but I hope they learn to be street smart and just enjoy the hobby before they create problems for all the aeromodellers.

Most of these kind of posts are made by newbies. People who have been in aeromodeling hardly comment on such topics and if they do, it is never negative. Ever stopped and thought why I have been in this a few years and I am just thankful that I can enjoy the hobby and that things have improved a lot from what it used to be. Trust me when I say we have seen far far worse situations than what is being complained about.

Judging by the numbers, looks easy!


Common sense is a misnomer!

I was *trying* to get everyone to understand that there are many more ground realities when it comes to running an LHS than just prices, but looks like HobbyCity has one hell of a hold on most people's minds  

On the positive side... the cost of entry in the hobby is going down (and that is true with LHSes also).

Nobody including any vendor has said anything against buying from hobbycity as far as I can recall. I think I myself has suggested some of their products where relevant. Some vendors might have pitched their products against hobbycity stuff, but last I checked India (and this forum) is still a democracy and you can choose to buy from where ever you want.

Too much harping based on half cooked knowledge was what got to me

Rotorzone,
Care to elaborate on this statement? Specially since you have been talking about the intellectual level of some of us.

Pankaj

I was definitely not talking about the intellectual levels of anybody. I have enough experience in life to know that sometimes even the dumbest guy you know could surprise you sometimes. Given what little I know about what these people have achieved in life, I'm not going to call them dumb. They could be some of the smartest people on earth. I did and still say they were lazy to dig up all the facts and have jumped to conclusions.

Being a newbie i would not go deeper into the issue.
But after comparing the price of whats on sites like HC n that what is offered by the LHS getting items from hc seems cheaper but than you never know when you run into our great custom's trouble.than there r somethings which is best brought from LHS.like the radio.
I hope the LHS prices their products more competitive to attract more buyers.

I mean to offend no one.

Guys,
I went through the entire thread once again.

It seems that we have actually deviated from the original thought of MPowerShopping's conduct and the experience of other LHS. Then the discussion moved to prices.

Could we split the discussion into two threads so that those of us who are interested in how the original issue got resolved can have clarity?

Pankaj

I would second Pankajc on splitting the topic. We seem have drifted away with our grouses.

Meanwhile some more inputs:

In Mpower's case there is no such evidence of them fronting another player like HC on their site. Instead they claim to be distributor of JBA engines (China)  which is true, since JBA engines original site cites them as a distributor.

Let me make things more clear:
I am a businessman who has/is spend some time setting up my own business that involves import of technical components many of which need licencing and heavy import duties. Indian Markets are price sensitive and at the same time has an unsure logistics infrastructure. So believe me I understand the scene when it comes to pricing and customer support in a fledgling market. It is mostly a catch22 situation, not enough market leading to no investment and vice versa. There are only some pointers to the future:

• Indiginization - Mr.Sai's MOSS initiative good one
• Low Cost improvisation and support DIY- Things like tools, parts, electronics, to be sourced locally etc
• LHS has and can influence market perception through education/interaction. Conduct workshops targeting beginners and create starter kits. It is also a brand building activity
• A lot of engineering grads are interested in kits for project presentation.  LHS's can come up with simple edu kits that introduce them to UAV projects etc.. And many of them may come into this hobby for a lifetime.
• Support additional ancillary hobbies, say like robotics or miniature modelling etc. May help in developing local suppliers

Above all communicate and the holly word "Evangelize" and be patient.

I am most disappointed with mpowershopping in their total lack of  communication!! That doesn't cost money or governmental red-tape. Believe me or not that is the lesson that LHS's should generally take from this incident.
Be honest and upfront. I may still choose an LHS for the information, I gain in interacting with them on the hobby and buy choices.

True.  But this thread is enough and more evidence that existence of entities like HobbyCity (with their, dare I say, seemingly ridiculous prices as compared to their own prices 6 months or a year ago) has diluted the perception of LHSes (at least for newcomers).  Many of the larger issues with running an LHS are getting buried in the face of one factor, which is price difference.

In many cases, the LHSes are the torch bearers of the hobby, and the unifying force.  The service, knowledge transfer, training and evangelization aspects are also important.  I learnt a lot from the technical/resource people (not the owners or sales folks) in our local LHSes, although majority of the credit would go to online information.  Out of 3 LHSes we have, we totally shun one that has ridiculous prices, and patronize the other two (again, this changed over time, as managements change, or management decisions change). 

Of course, there seems to be no justification for what has happened with Anto so far.  To be fair, I have send the topic to them multiple times from different email addresses, yet no response

Do you know that HC does not make any items themselves, it just re-brands them. When a customer buys then he should rate the product on LHS in india too.



Can you please elaborate on this. If you mean that we are not paying duty then you better have some proof or pls do not talk about it. We are not into smuggling, carrier business, etc.

Can you also tell where is it mentioned that it is banned. Hope you have enough knowledge about international trade and know different licencing procedures etc., if not please not talk or write when you have half or no knowledge. We have also imported explosives LEGALLY into India.

Mentioned many times in other posts that we are cheaper than HC on many items, have you written to HC about it ?. If you haven't done that then pls do not talk.

Agree with what Rajesh has said earlier.

Regarding Main topic of this thread, i have no comments till the other party does not respond. If the other party keeps silent for long then will arise.

Man, this is heating up.
Its getting more n more
complex to comments.
One thing the LHS can do
is to put up a comparative price chart for the items.
This should also include the amount for customs ,vat etc
so that people see the broader picture.

I am pretty aware of that. But the point is since there is no ratings present on the site, its no good to judge .

As per the Customs blocked list, Radio import is not allowed in India, though ham radios are allowed. My friend Ujjwaana had a customs issue with radio and the Customs people has clearly showed him the documents of what is banned  , So thats the basis on which I commented on the import duty. Forgive me if I am wrong.

You might have imported EXPLOSIVES legally in India. Have you imported a TX LEGALLY in India? if so please do share the process with us, so that we can also do it

I would have definitely commented to HC about its prices, If I were to stay in China and HC was in INDIA and the prices were high on most of the items. What I was trying to say is that on most of the items - almost more than 80%, the prices Of HC are way tooo cheaper. You may show a prop that is cheaper by 20 bucks in LHS and I will show a battery 3S1P 2200 mah that is 5 times costlier(2000 bucks more) here in LHS for the same quality.

I purchased a prop from Ujjwaana which he had got from an LHS for 75 bucks, I was very satisfied with it. But its mostly props/carbon fiber (may be few items I am aware of) I find the prices compatible. Other than that mostly 80% of the items are way too costly. So it would be obvious decision of anybody that when ordering the 80% of the stuff from HC, why not order the remaining 20 percent from there itself?

Still above all this we were deciding on getting the CF RODS from LHS since they were cheaper/almost same price and we can save on shipping, but they were out of stock from long long time. So we went and ordered many from HC at once paying a hefty 30 USD shipping, Attached pics are the proof. Those are just my order after sharing half with Ujjwaana. There were almost a 5000 Rs worth of CF rods(80 + rods) ordered excluding shipping.

Iam not commenting based on half knowledge on all the things. I may have commented wrong on the import stuff and I apologize. But being a platinum member at HC, with more than 45,000 Rs of order from me alone from HC in 2.5 months means I would have done a lot of research before making such huge purchases.

Note, all my effort is not to fight with LHS or anyone. I have never fought with anyone in life, makes no sense, neither do I have that attitude. All I was trying to say was some things can be improved.

In fact when Ujjwal comes to my place, he keeps on commenting on how LHS can be improved though we get all our stuff from HC, but thats no use, who is to listen? There may be hurles, but definitely room for improvements.

Dear Sai,

I may not have purchased from you, but I do recognise the effort of you put in preparing the combo package, arranging the website in a easily navigatable organised way. No wonder I was suggesting that radio package of yours to the newcomer on the other thread. If I would have been on a limited budget, I would have purchased that package from you long ago. But I already have those stuff with me. I may not have brought from you, but I wanted to be your regular customer if things were as described in before post. Thats what the intension behind this whole typing.

Ujjwal,

I believe its high time to stop commenting/suggesting. It not take anywhere. who knows what all LHS has been through as Anwar suggested in this limited customer country. It just causes heat and nothing more. What ever we had to say has been said, and what ever LHS has to comment they have commented. So just lets leave the topic here and make RCI a more peaceful place for all. 

People please dont mind the different pillow cover . In fact I change the pillow cover every other day, hence the difference.

Yes very much, the TX are imported legally and duty paid, You need to have the restricted import licence, the same is only given to companies after they meet the necessary criteria and a long drawn out process and is issued from delhi. So you are more than welcome to go ahead and do the same.

Regarding you comment on 80% of the items, we carry more than 450SKUs, and another 150SKUs which is there at our place which we do not ship and not on our site & HC does not carry even 20% of those items, please check it yourself.

By just buying some items under valuing it or smuggling into india, or declaring item bought as gift, etc is not what we are doing so will not comment and try to do the same.

These are the kind of things that ticked me off. It just shows how ignorant you are about how the system works in India. Indian law can be interpreted in a 1000 different ways depending on how you present your case, the mood of the official and myriad of other seemingly irrelevant factors. You got screwed trying to import radio. So many other people have got their radio down without any issues. Almost any activity can be deemed legal or illegal depending on what sections you apply. Pick up your newspaper and you'll see many other examples of this daily. If the law was so clear cut, we wouldn't have any need for lawyers.

Has it occurred to you that the vendors might have spend time, effort and money on understanding the laws, hiring consultants, lawyers and agents, on licenses etc. What makes you think you have the right to go and demand that they give all the information away for free ?

What ticks us off is that there are many +ve comments/suggestions that the customers are trying to make towards improvement since long time. But all that is highlighted by the LHS is that the core negative points that we make by mistake(like the above, for which I even asked an apology honestly) and is argued over for pages together. w/o even considering the +ve suggestions for a single instance.

There is no meaning in wasting our time over these arguments. It leads to no where.

As well, I had no issues with my Radio, I got an RDS with 8 Ch receiver for just Rs 7000 brand new w/o issues from US and I am happy with it. One of my friend had an issue. None of my problems though.

Again, I have no hatred against anyone. In fact I was greeted very well by Sanjeev when I went to RCD and showed me a lot of his collections so happily and spoke to us for hours giving meaning full suggestions and directions, which I will never get from HC. And all that I have brought from him is just a prop till date.

All my suggestions where just to attract more customers towards LHS, I suggested those based on the fact that I am an RC customer and what a customer would be expecting from a hobby shop. So let us please stop it here. 

So I have decided what I find meaningful buying from LHS, I will buy from LHS and what I find meaning full elsewhere, I will buy it there. So any arguments/ suggestions/comments whatever it may be, I would not like to make it anymore is what I have decided.

Guys please , I think as starter of this thread we are drifting into a flame war. I posted this thread as a means to inform others about my experience and be forewarned. And that is it..

Anto - You do not have to feel bad about this discussion at all  

And the LHS discussion has sort of fizzled out, largely in part due to Vinay's attitude, which I personally see as a positive example of conduct on forums like these.  He made mistakes that he admitted, clarified his position and voiced his concerns professionally.  People do get carried away at times, we all do.

This discussion should definitely have helped people get a better idea about how LHSes conduct their business (and the problems they face), and should prove generally positive in the long run.

What is the latest from MPowerShopping ?  It has been almost a month now since you raised this issue, and we agreed to wait for the LHS to get back to you (considering the year-end, holiday season etc).

No response from them, period. Doesn't lift their phones, no answer to SMS, ...

Now is KartikShah and LHS as well? What is his shop called?

Dear Anwar,
You have been quite supportive of the plight of LHS, but I dare say that the tone and tennor of the communications from LHS representatives is not in the correct spirit.
If I recall correctly you are in the IT field your self and you must have dealt with vendors or clients at some point in time. Have you not seen suppliers bending backwards to accommodate the wishes of the client? I am also from IT sector and deal largly with Govt establishments. I do see different suppliers quoting different prices for the same brand and specs. So as far as the client (even gov) is concerned, they are not bothered with the custom duty or any other levy that the supplier must pay in order to supply the goods. Equally, the client is not concerned whether the item is sourced directly from US, Singapore or India.For the same specs it it the lowest price that wins the deal ( well there are deviations to this but lets not get into that).  So where do the vendor make money from? Afterall no one is in for charity. In this kind of a scenario, the price reduction comes from transfer price of OEM or from the vendor's margin.
Now, why would the gov/client buy from a local vendor and not source directly from abroad - it is because of the after sales service and maintenance.
Now why shouldn't this principle be applied in case of LHS vs internaltional purchase as well?
Consider this - In most cases, if the items are marked for personal use and are considered toy parts of lower value, the custom authorities do not levy any duty. It is coming by post and the custom officer has every right to open the package, inspect and ask us to either explain the purpose before deciding on the duty component. If they choose not to do any of this, it does not mean that the goods that I have imported is illegal.
So at the end of the day unless, I am offered better service, what is the justification for buying locally at such a high rate.
Cases like MPowerShopping and PayLessFlyMore (ref Gaurav's case), IF taken as candidate examples of the kind of service that an LHS is providing, do not inspire confidence in me as a buyer.

Pankaj

Kartik is with RCDhamaka, and please understand that he was responding to a really "huge" amount of criticism, at least part of which was later confirmed as baseless.

Since you addressed the rest of your post to me, let me add that your line of argument ends up calling for all LHSes to be shutdown (except for the "service" part, which is also portrayed as hit and miss).  In this day and age where pretty much everyone has a credit card, it may be possible to continue in this hobby (like people used to do a few years ago) by importing alone and scratch building. We have to look at LHSes as a true commitment towards this hobby by most owners who are also avid RC hobbyists, and are trying their best.  Once we realize that, and the fact that certain items like radios are very hard to import and are made available easily via LHSes, we  tend to accept the price differences to a certain degree.

One has every choice to buy from where ever; what I am expressing here, along with many others is that we should not dilute the struggle that LHSes are going through.  A small part of it is their own making (bad customer service, bad product selection etc), but they are in no way in control of the circumstances they operate in (customs duty, old stock etc); and despite best efforts, local prices tend to be higher.

Only when you develop a closer relationship with any store, preferably run by someone who is also an active hobbyist, do you realize their impact.  Just think of the aeromodelling workshops conducted by Sai for many youngsters as an example.  I don't see HobbyCity coming and doing that. Yes, they do this to make a profit, but they ARE the ones who are doing such things.

So cut them some slack 

I am not condemning all of LHS, only the ones who do not provide service.

True, some of the LHS may be very passionate about this hobby and they go all out to promote the same, but that is a different aspect altogether. You are passionate about open communication and hence this forum - I do not think it is for any form of profit..

There are two aspects - one is commercial in nature and the other is that of an evangelism. Why mix the two?

Further, what kind of an attitude is that of an LHS who means to say that he doesn't care about opinions of folks who don;t buy in bulk from him? Its not right - its not professional.

Pankaj

 customer   vendor  

hope antojk problem gets resolved soon if not what can he or someone in similar situation do ?

sahil

i agree with u on this  , my dealing with Mr Sai didn't end with me buying the plane alone. Me being a beginner he helped me in the field with  the trimming and setup of the plane! He even passed on some tips on flying the plane! you cant count on hobbycity to do that!

Very good summary, frankly will be great if LHS also have a feedback link or support link on their websites. We have had several reports of LHS shipped items coming in damaged to the buyer. There should be at least a support channel that the LHS must provide to handle such cases. At least some solace when you get stuff like below:

1. Broken - LHS could at least mark the shipment as "Fragile". When you see that some thing like a thin CF flat is bent and broken in transit.
2. Electronics that don't work.
3. Ordered parts missing.

In which case lets never discuss LHS intricacies on this forum. Thats really not got anything to do with building, flying aircraft. While there is so much to discuss on LHS stuff  there is precious little ever  contributed to stuff on build techniques, flying techniques.

Lets only focus on that 

From now onwards I am with you on that.

Beg your pardon, but did not make sense to me   This is one of the many threads here, which got some lengthy individual posts, and exchange of "opinions".  If you remove your focus from this thread, we are discussing all the items you highlighted also.

Remember one thing.  RC India exists for making the hobby more accessible to everyone (with the utmost concern for beginners), and LHS is very much a part of the equation from that perspective.

Have you imagined what would happen if all we discussed was any one aspect, even if it is building (or flying) ? Like I have said before, it is all seasonal.  If there is no thread/post related to building today, there would be one tomorrow 

Moreover, to say that we do not have a forum to voice our experiences (good or bad) on the service quality of the LHS is not acceptable at all.

Pankaj

This thread has become a mess with topics that should be 2 or 3 separate threads. People are ending up with wrong conclusions about the freedom of speech this forum stands for. Looking back at my posts I guess I'm also guilty of using strong language that could have contributed to that impression. Anyway as usual I'm sure Anwar will do a good job of cleaning up the mess 

Not sure if we can arrive at conclusions with only opinions being expressed  . Afterall someone isn't happy with what they got and many are happy to express the  in doing a certain business 

Anwar Bhai, can you pls make this a sticky topic. We will take it off the moment MPowerShopping makes some positive steps

Done.

Dude.. I hope you are not letting him walk with this fraud ?

We have some Chennai guys here, if someone can go at his office or get in touch with him and try to sort this out would be great for our friend here..

Do a police case or do something my friend.. If you let him go with this am pretty sure he will con other people as well..

Kick his *ss

There is no response to telephone calls - I have tried both the numbers listed - so it looks like they have shut up shop for (their) good. In which case you would not find anyone at their address, either. Under the circumstances, I doubt anything effective can really be done except lick ones wounds.

BTW did ANYONE have any dealing with these guys?

Of course there are legal recourses, including simpler ones like the consumer courts.  Not sure if they are worth the time/effort, except for the satisfaction/example aspects.

came across this thread..it seems our friend is not the only guy who has a problem with mpowershopping..

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shifting-gears/43909-miniature-remote-controlled-airplanes-aeromodelling-3.html

[Admin Note] Direct link to post : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/1500461-post41.html

Even if one has the inclination, time and effort, what can one do if they have ceased to exist? They seem to have gone completely off the radar.

FWIK, depending on how the business is registered (partnership versus limited), courts will order liquidation of the owners or firms assets, and the proceeds will be distributed to the creditors.  The problem is the duration for such proceeds.

To the best of MY knowledge, such directives are not the prerogative of consumer courts.

In any case (pun intended) this is all really academic.

In future "caveat emptor" (in English: "let the buyer beware").

Given the legal process in India, I wonder what will be the outcome.

Another thought is that given most of the LHS are individuals and not full fledged corporations, if the guy has decides to take off for an extended holiday or is unable to attend office for an extended period of time due to personal reasons, what could be done?

Which brings us back to the question of rating the online stores. If one is dealing with an LHS locally ( i.e. same city, locality etc), one may be able to build a relationship and deal on a one-to-one basis, but what happens when most of the dealings is online?

Pankaj

I think it would be great to file a consumer case. If the payment was made using check/Credit Card, it would be of great help.

My whole point was not to worship false prophets - I take pleasure to go to kind of Mr Sanjeev to buy whatever I can find in his store. its nice experience to have some talk with 'orignal modelers' like him (wish to see his Smoothie  complete  soon)!!
But in the words of late IT czar Dewang Mehta of NASCOM "Internet only magnifies the existing problems", so are such 'Runaway Bitches' who sell and pack-up. They ever existed, but internet has brought them to everyone's door.

Using forum to warn any fraudulent phony LHS is always a good idea. New comers should make use of LHS megalist and leave TOFTT for seniors.

The HC API was just a hunch, and I left any member actually orderring stuff form MPower to verify possibility, and then we may better avoid such people.

All the best Anto.

Thank you for the suggestions guys.. I am planning to do a location check next time I am in Chennai. I had done an electronic bank transfer. So there is proof of receipt of money. But without any bill/PO etc I don't know if I can take it to the consumer courts.

Talking of which, I feel our consumer courts are ineffective because there is not much money for the lawyers in it. If we adopt the US model where hefty court fines are awarded, a size-able amount of which goes to the attorney's purses etc can get a lot of lawyers interested. Nothing motivates as much as money. Till then we won't get effective legal intervention.
A lot of our so called legitimate shops (car dealerships, service outlets etc) takes the consumer for a ride here. But the threat of a 1 crore suite can definitely cure these guys.. Think of a lawyer making 10-20 lacs as attorney fees in this case, now that would be different priority. (Sorry for digression on topic  )

I am really sorry to say this.For 1 thing i had already dispatched the transmitter ages ago?? If i remember i even gave you the docket number over phone??. And thats the last i have ever heard from you. I am no more a rc modeler and i do not FREQUENT forums you had listed. I guess over a conversation with you i even told you this. If you didn't receive your mail you could have mailed me your feedback??. And believe me i am not someone who is doing this for lack of money. I am posting your money and a completely new transmitter into your account by morning. I damn need not have your money and nor am i a cheat to take your money and run away. The last call i had from your side was if i am right by dec 26th or something. So on all accounts i presume that everything is fine. Unless and otherwise you get back to me how ON THIS WORLD DO I KNOW IF SOMETHINGS GONE WRONG.  I also saw you posting some link where in there was a another problem. Dat guy still has to pay me money so will You take responsibility of that. His bill amount is Rs 24000/- he has still now paid me Rs 16k i am lagging in on 8K and dat guy still persists dat he can buy a futaba 6 ex for 5k?? It can all be made to sound dat the vendor is a criminal but will you guys pay me that money?? Another incident- a person buys a edge from me for Rs 6k from delhi. he works in a leading audit firm.... i promised that my money has been transfered and till today that hasnt been done. Its 2 years so do i go and say to the world you guys are frauds???. I care a damn about money and i dont run my business for that. Please update me on your bank account now and i will transfer your money NOW and i have also instructed my office to send you another transmitter. The previous parcel was sent via fed-ex we will have the bill for it so i will trace it and mail you a scanned copy. But will you and can you get me my name back?. There is always tWo sides to a coin... and NOT EVERY1 IN THIS WORLD ARE FRAUDS.

You are welcome to c\try to  kick my *ss. Unlewss and otherwise you know of whats happening please do not feel free to talk about someone else. Y dont u drop down to chennai and we can see??

got carried away with the conversation if you follow the entire thread..about dropping in to Chennai I would really like to do that someday but of course to meet all the aeromodellers and have a good time flying..

antojk your call my friend..

Looks like you are very angry when caught..:-).  I checked with Fedex online and TVM office and both reported that the docket number you gave was non existent. And knowing Fedex, If they couldn't deliver then you would have got the package back...  To prove the point, please post the docket number online again here. Fedex keep records of their transactions and they have dates.


I send you numerous mails from gmail. if you responded prior to my sending money, why didn't you  respond to after? Also I send you numerous sms's on your mobile phone and tried contacting you on the numbers given at mpowershopping.com. Your mobile phone was never accessible and the same with the landline. I have got copies of those mails and sms's with me... and phone records if you want.

I finally chatted with Anwar, a lot of people respect him here. He tried contacting you on  my behalf, all to no avail. After consulting them, I finally took this measure.


You are behaving like a child now. It hurt you when I posted on the gmail buzz because your friends may see it. As I mentioned in my emails and sms's, Rs 2600/- is a paltry sum to loose your integrity on. But you see, nobody gets away scott free.

If somebody has cheated you, you have every right to voice protest. I hold no malice against you other than the fact that you behaved very unprofessionally..

Well, good to see you back on the forum. I just hope it is all a communication issue.  As a casual observer, there are so many unanswered questions though.  Every effort to contact you was in vain.  I tried emailing from two different email providers.  Anto tried multiple times to contact you using multiple methods. Sushil bhai tried to call both your numbers.  

If you fall off from the face of the earth like this (totally incommunicado), then any reasonable person will come to certain conclusions, and people cannot be blamed for that.  When this issue was first brought up, my first advise to Anto was that we both will try to contact you independently before making this a public issue.  I even suggested that it is end of the year, and you may be on vacation or something.  Only after trying multiple times over couple of weeks and giving up, this was brought up in public by Anto. What else would someone do when a "shop" (not a "person") cannot be contacted using any means ?

Again, I hope it was all a misunderstanding.  You can put yourself in the shoes of any member of the forum (or any member of the public), and you will realize that the opinions expressed are just natural human reactions.

Bravo Anwar Bhai. Well said

Mr.Antony,

Serioulsy if i had mail i would have replied to them. If u do recollect our conversation d last time i spoke to u was on the 26th of dec. After that the only way to reach me would have been my mail as i was not in chennai... If anyone has been flying in chennai they would have known dat im not in town. I was not reachable on my calls cas the nos listed is my personal nos and me not being in town i left my phone to my pal in office. But once i was back i had no idea of what was happening. I was in the 2nd of week of Jan and if i am right Mr. antony u have my nos to call me up??? If i am right i had even called u from office landline?? u could have called in  dat?? Not the one listed in d site but the one i had called from my desk?? but when u didnt hear from som1 u always take it dats no issues??. And y should i give fake nos?? I gave the nos which i was given by the courier guy...And dont mistake me i am not replying cas u left me a buzz... i am replying cas i am not a fraud. And if u think dat im replying cas my friends would see dat i cheated Rs 2600/- beleive those who know me will know whats the truth

Mr.Anwar the problem is understood. will be taken care by morning...my only wish this could have been cleared up longtime back had i got my mail.The last mail i got was with his address and after that i have nothing....i will check through my mail again.....and at any cost i owe Mr.Antony a apology for the delay in delivery-though not caused by me rather by my courier company. Albeit its my fault in choosing the wrong company...

Is 9841427333 your personal number? I know of only this number... This the number listed in the contacts page of your site too.  I had send sms's to this number well after december 26. Anwar Bhai also tried contacting you on this number. I had send you email on your gmail address in January


Nobody is saying you are a fraud my friend.. Please take the necessary action. Please check  ur gmail now. I have send you a mail also..

Also, Fedex representative in Trivandrum categorically says that they have not received any courier with the docket number given by you...
Please post it again.. I can check with them. If they goofed up somebody should take an action on them

As of now Mr. Ghanesh has intimated me that he is sending another compatible TX with an added surprise gift. I will update as soon as I receive the package.

Actually I am wondering what to write? An LHS (mpoweshopping)  that leaves town without making proper arrangements and then returns with a truck load of attitude - as though the fault lies with the buyer AND dares anyone to try to kick his butt. To top it all, has a tag line against his profile that reads 'I am what I am'

Well, a simple statement on the website that the offices would be closed from one date to another could have been enough to communicate to current and/or potential customers. Antojk and others could have waited till the guy returned. Take a site like hobbycity, of late they have posted in their site that the services would be affected till 16th due to chinese new year.

Almost all courier service providers have at least a telephone number where one can trace the parcel (it need not be online tracking). So when you send information about the AWB number, a number where to call could have been enough.

The above two steps could ensure some level of transparency to those who are interested.

Pankaj


 

Pankaj - Mr Ganesh did offer an unconditional apology, and is taking steps to correct the situation

Nobody takes it lightly when man-handling is mentioned, you can attribute those comments to that

I totally agree that  all this was preventable by taking simple precautions !

My take on this is a "CYA " - as well as possible considering the circumstances - syndrome.

Sushil bhai -

Saying "I was wrong" or "I could have done things better" is such a stress reliever for both the person saying it and the ones who are listening When people try that, let us encourage it ! 

It shows how people progress towards that coveted "maturity". It helps a great deal in earning the respect of others. So far in my nascent interaction on the RC scene (focused on India), I have come across only a couple of people who adamantly refuse to do that.

In principle, YES. But my take was based on many years of similar experiences. The sudden "turnabout" from villain to hero is what has put my antenna up. Again  MY opinion on the issue is to be wary.

For what it may be worth, I have tried calling them on the number listed on their site, just a few minutes ago. There is no one answering the phone. This, of course, may or may not mean anything.

Thats why one should always seek other's advice before ordering from a new shop, be it LHS or WHS. I think considering the episode, it would take a couple of orders from fellow Fliers before MPOWER builds reputation as other LHS have built on the forum over the time. Every one wants Yet Another LHS on the block, making our life easy, but not at the cost of bad experience, loads hassle etc.

Old LHS, keep the good work!

 Proper manning of the shop or putting an answering machine (or voice mailbox) would help customers.