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« on: June 19, 2020, 06:13:49 PM »
tonyStark
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Hi Folks,

This has been waiting for a while on my radar and finally I have decided to dive deep into this. This will be a build thread for turbine jet engine.

Little background about myself: I like meddling with things and built something that is interesting. I am a mechanical engineer and now an IT professional (damn, what are the odds  Giggle). I have 4 years of professional experience turbine commissioning and operations at thermal power plant and three years of experience in model jet engines (not flying).

This built is going to be completely experimental in nature. It may succeed or it may fail depending upon many factors.

The proposed design specs are:

Diameter: 80 mm
length: ~200-240 mm
Thrust: ~50N-60N (5-6KG)

The design will be a scratch development and won't be a replica of any commercial product.

If there is sufficient interest I will continue with the thread.
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2020, 06:25:00 PM »
THE RC GUY
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5-6 kg?  Bow Hats Off Salute
multiple rotors??
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2020, 06:50:24 PM »
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Oh yes, please make a thread ! Interested to learn more about it!
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2020, 08:17:36 PM »
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2020, 08:28:28 PM »
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Yes. 5 to 6Kg of thrust. One can use it in a heavy & big models.

I didn't get your point of multi rotor. It will be single rotor(single shaft) design. There are no multi rotor design in model jet engines.
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2020, 08:40:53 PM »
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Getting started !!!

I have drawn some rough drawings of the possible dimensions. Here are the raw parts now. All the parts are depicted and destined.

Work will start soon. Shaft would be the first candidate. (lucky he  Grin!!!)


09ea6ba4-c64f-4a5c-beb8-bf0bfa2fb523.jpg
Re: Kick starting jet turbine project (60N class)
* 09ea6ba4-c64f-4a5c-beb8-bf0bfa2fb523.jpg (72.14 KB, 800x711 - viewed 402 times.)
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2020, 09:38:35 PM »
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have you tried 3d printing prototype models sir?
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2020, 09:40:31 PM »
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 Hats Off i'm sure you know what you are doing a lot better than most of us but still i thought of recommending something Hats Off
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2020, 09:45:31 PM »
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There are no multi rotor design in model jet engines.
thats why i had asked you
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2020, 10:12:05 PM »
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Getting started !!!

I have drawn some rough drawings of the possible dimensions. Here are the raw parts now. All the parts are depicted and destined.

Work will start soon. Shaft would be the first candidate. (lucky he  Grin!!!)



Would it be possible for you to mention material used and why and also what type of tooling used for achieving final product! It would be helpful I feel!
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2020, 10:34:02 PM »
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Sure.

Most of the parts are aluminium (6061 grade or Hindalium).
The shaft tunnel can be made out of aluminium or steel. I choose Aluminium given its easier machinability.
The shaft is EN24T simply for its high tensile properties and strength. You can also go for 12.9 grade allen bolt of this size.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 11:17:30 AM by tonyStark » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2020, 10:36:00 PM »
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3D printing won't help in such design given the amount of strength and pressure they come into.
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2020, 09:39:27 AM »
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subscribed and closely following
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2020, 04:54:05 PM »
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Sure.

Most of the parts are aluminium (6061 grade or Hindalium).
The shaft tunnel can be made out of aluminium or steel. I choose Aluminium given its easier machinability.
The shaft is EN24T simply for its high tensile properties and strength. You can also go for 12.9 grade allen bolt of this size.
Good choice of materials. What about the blades, shaft, bearings etc?
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2020, 09:27:16 PM »
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Not much progress today.

The shaft round I got was of way bigger in Dia., cutting that much is a waste so I went to the market (10km from my place) but I had some problem in my bike midway. By the time I fixed and reached the market, it was close. Now it will open on Monday only. Will see, If I can machine this round tomorrow.

@sanjay Shaft is En24T. Bearing I will decide in due course,mostly GRW.
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2020, 11:19:36 PM »
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Interested, please continue posting!
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2020, 10:44:12 PM »
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Update:

last Saturday & Sunday went into designing & machining the shaft.

Shaft is one of the most important component. The turning has to be absolutely concentric and mating surfaces orthogonal to avoid shaft bending and vibrations. The first resonance is expected to be around 2400 to 2900 RPM.

I could not resist the temptation and turned down the 20mm round. En24T is not easy to machine, you can't take heavy cut in one go. There will be lots of heat and ample cooling fluid is need with speed around 400-450 rpm. It took 7-8 hours to get to this and still final fit and tolerances are yet to finish. The fit will depend on the mating component.

d767cd33-2a60-4ebe-b16a-580538a4afe8.jpg
Re: Kick starting jet turbine project (60N class)
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2020, 11:40:02 PM »
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Wow !! Nice to know that you do have experience in TPP Turbine and Model Jet turbine . Else in most arguments with noobs, I had hard time convincing challenges in Material science, high temperature Lubrication, and extremely high tolerance machining.

Would you mind sharing where you got the chance to work on Model Jet Engines , because they are much rare opportunity than most Turbine types. Also, where you ot access to such machine tools, considering you too are a Software Professional like me, who had to build his Electronics lab from scratch - from Screwdrivers. Multi Meters to Signal Generators, Oscilloscope and RF Analyzer.

<Edit while you posted the Lathe Pics: Kudos : Keep the good work and heartiest well wishes and good luck for this project>
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2020, 12:56:17 PM »
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Which motor will you use for the edf sir?
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2020, 01:28:54 PM »
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I don't think he is trying to make an EDF. I recommend you do some research on Jet Turbines.

Regards,
Nitesh
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2020, 06:45:26 PM »
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yes, Nitesh is right. It is not an EDF.

It is a model jet engine very similar to what you see hanging under the wings of an aeroplane, just its very small and is for mostly RC purpose. If you have a RC plane which is quite big or you need a real jet flying experience, you install one of these. They run, sound and feel like real big jet engines.
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2020, 07:15:15 PM »
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@tonystark,

With your metal working skills and facilities, maybe you could build a ram jet like Dynajet, as a warm up exercise before building the turbine!

And I expect you’d have already considered turbochargers as a parts source...

Best wishes for your project.

BTW, I remember having seen videos of a (fairly large) working homemade jet turbine by someone somewhere in Punjab.
NOT an EDF  Grin.
Will share if I can locate them.

Regards
Iyer
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2020, 07:35:49 PM »
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Else in most arguments with noobs, I had hard time convincing challenges in Material science, high temperature Lubrication, and extremely high tolerance machining.

Where you ot access to such machine tools, considering you too are a Software Professional like me, who had to build his Electronics lab from scratch - from Screwdrivers. Multi Meters to Signal Generators, Oscilloscope and RF Analyzer.

Indeed, metallurgy and machining process is with no doubt play a vital role in jet engines. The jet engine parts like the shaft, turbine blades and NGV come under very high temperature and pressure. Sustaining the mechanical properties at this elevated temperature needs special alloys. About tolerance,for example, the gap between the compressor and its shroud has to be 0.1mm for optimal efficiency. And the same goes for turbine and NGV.

The workshop is self built over the years, the way you have built from the scratch, as a part of the startup. Been into turbine for almost 7 years, initially big ones (TPP) and then shifted to model ones. I own a jetcat for like 3 years or more.

@KKIyer
There are many jet turbine prototypes in my closet worked upon over the last 4-5 years. All at different stages of development. I have been warming up a lot... Giggle

I have a running prototype TS 100 (10KG thrust) with 105mm dia. & 1.2kg weight. An upgrade to this size TS 120N is under development aimed at 120N thrust. The other one TS 80(80N) with a 91mm dia. is in early design stage.

The build I am sharing here is TS 60 with 80mm dia. is another one in the series aimed at creating something small with powerful thrust and reliable operation.
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2020, 09:14:28 PM »
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@tonystark,

I wonderered where you went after Nov 2016  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2020, 12:31:13 AM »
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Yes,  Grin.

meanwhile my caliper betrayed me and gave and 0.08mm error while machining the shaft. The compressor end was supposed to be 5.9. Caliper showed me 5.82. When i reached 5.82 and checked, damn, all in vain. There will be play in the mating component.

This is a scrap piece now. I will have to machine a new one from the beginning. It was such a beautiful piece coming out. Bang Head

0ece6279-617c-4897-acfd-6a0a1faf3452.jpg
Re: Kick starting jet turbine project (60N class)
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« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2020, 01:35:20 AM »
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you truly are an Ironman fan Giggle
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2020, 07:48:00 PM »
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you truly are an Ironman fan Giggle

Hahaha, Yes big fan. All my stuff is having that logo. Bike helmet laptop walls profiles etc.

Update:

As the shaft failed, got the new round and will start machining soon.
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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2020, 01:10:40 AM »
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Designing the shaft and the diffussor gave me the clue that 80mm will be difficult to make at this point of time. The parts become really small and the compressor wheel might not be able to drive the turbine wheel. The current compressor wheel selected is 5+5 with exuder 54. Need better GT compressor wheel to deliver. May be need to experiment.

So I am switching to 90mm diameter. Everything else remain same. Will machine the new shaft tomorrow if time permits.
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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2020, 01:58:12 PM »
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Meanwhile, I got some parts from US and Spain. The turbine wheel and NGVs. It took almost 2 weeks to reach me after custom clearance (pandemic thing). The customs was cleared fast. To my surprise & dismay, the Indian customs has charged 80% & 90% total duty on the declared amount on the respective shipments under the code 9965. One came through DHL and other through UPS. Both shipment was not opened.(went through x-ray screening). Now this is astounding. Did they thought its coming from China? Such a heavy charging. Usually they use to charge around 42-43%.


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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2020, 05:22:31 PM »
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Was thinking of ordering some parts from China for some projects. If that's the duty they're gonna charge then whoops, the plan goes down the drain.
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« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2020, 06:13:27 PM »
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Its tough to get anything from China now. DHL and FeDEX both have halted the shipping from China given the Indian custom is not clearing stuffs. I don't know the point of this. This is hurting our own industries and the global companies assembling or manufacturing here. This is not the way one reduces dependency.

Charging double as duty is not the way.

But I think this won't last longer.
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« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2020, 06:30:56 PM »
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That's just stupid and pointless. What do they think they'll achieve out of this?
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« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2020, 01:29:47 AM »
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Update:

So after the first shaft failed. I started with the new one. I have been machining it 2 days now (some 8-9 hours).It was about to finish. But today luck betrayed at the last moment. I delayed a fraction of sec in detaching the lead screw and it screwed me up. The shaft bent a bit. This one also goes to the grave.  Hats Off

Time to machine the 3rd one. Small parts are not that easy machine it seems.  Bang Head
Fun continues.

Screenshot_20200702-012831-picsay.jpg
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« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2020, 11:56:22 PM »
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Update:

The week has past without much progress on machining front. The city is under lock-down and I can't get the shaft material till 12th.

Meanwhile I took a chance to investigate the 1st shaft failure which looked like a caliper being misread. careful investigation revealed that my lathe machine was cutting taper and off center. This week I disassembled the head to align the offset. Now it is aligned. I will check the center alignment tomorrow.

The reason of this was change of place and over the time head do tend to get misaligned. Once set I will proceed with the shaft machining next week.

The other team is working on the control electronics for the engines. A PIC IC based controller is being worked upon. He is the circuit board in 3D.

62cd70ab-758a-44bf-b3a3-10a40f591ff3.jpg
Re: Kick starting jet turbine project (60N class)
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« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2020, 09:24:53 PM »
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Update:

The tail stock was misaligned by 1 mm. This would never let the shaft be concentric. I removed the offset last Sunday and also got the shaft round machined. The shaft is ready now.

330d5dff-18d7-403c-9ce2-971b98ce5b65.jpg
Re: Kick starting jet turbine project (60N class)
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« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2020, 09:56:00 PM »
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Update:

Its been a while I posted here. Last couple weeks were consuming.

Now following parts are ready.

1. Shaft
2. Shaft tunnel
3. Diffuser system
4. Compressor nut
5. Turbine nut
6. Turbine wheel (German make, machined it to tolerances)
7. NGV (german make, Needs machining)
8. Compressor wheel (ready stock from Garrett)

Next in line will be diffuser outer. As this project is agile one, the diffuser dimensions will be calculated and drawn in CAD. Will surely post some pic soon.

Cheers!!
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« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2020, 09:40:05 AM »
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As promised, Here are some pics of the parts made so far.

You can spot the completed diffuser, shaft tunnel in making and the front shaft nut.


IMG_20200726_204619.jpg
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« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2020, 05:40:29 PM »
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Newbie here,
Why don't you get the parts manufactured by some machining shop that has CNC lathe ?
I guess that will speed things up right ?
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« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2020, 06:12:09 PM »
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Nice progress ... Looks like the ECU board is being designed in Ki-CAD , the wrong 3D design of the SMD Resister/Capacitors gave me illusion that your board is using this many (tall)  Boxed Poly Caps (WIMA type) ... Let me know if I can help from ECU / Board side ..

Power with you ...

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« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2020, 07:05:17 PM »
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We require more Innovative Individuals like you in this Hobby.

 Bow Hats Off Hats Off Hats Off
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« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2020, 10:11:29 PM »
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Newbie here,
Why don't you get the parts manufactured by some machining shop that has CNC lathe ?
I guess that will speed things up right ?

I would think twice before giving amateur suggestions to professionals...
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« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2020, 02:29:35 PM »
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Newbie here,
Why don't you get the parts manufactured by some machining shop that has CNC lathe ?
I guess that will speed things up right ?

There are many reasons for this. I will try to explain it here.

R&D are agile in nature. When you are creating something from scratch, many component go over many phases of development and iterations. Consider this example, You start with one design, mid way you come to know you need to modify this or change this or scrape this and built a new one altogether. All of this would require readily available resources (man machine materials) to materialize the change. Jumping to CNC now-n-then will take your prototype cost way higher.

There are many inherent challenges.

1. CNC setting up time is high, its one time effort and so its good for mass production, not for a single component which might subjected to change.
2. Getting one off part is made from CNC is costly.
3. You can't just have CNC so easy, most of the workshop won't even consider your order if its less then MOQ of 10. (still cost will be high)
4. And off-course you can't buy a CNC when you have multiple source of cash outflow and no concrete product yet.

If you have easy access to it, it definitely a boon. The above reasons are in context to a cash strapped self funded startup. If you are sitting on a pile of cash, well there is no reason not to head to the CNC room.

You question didn't surprise me. Many a time I get such recommendation to go for CNC or get it 3D printed. What I believe is in ladder of progression. There is no easy & fast way to success. A balanced approach would be to get the basics right and  your foot deep into roots and then take a leap. (yeah contrary to what Tony Stark said: "Sometimes you gotta run before you can walk"   Giggle).

Once the design is proven, CNC is the way.
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« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2020, 02:33:54 PM »
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Nice progress ... Looks like the ECU board is being designed in Ki-CAD , the wrong 3D design of the SMD Resister/Capacitors gave me illusion that your board is using this many (tall)  Boxed Poly Caps (WIMA type) ... Let me know if I can help from ECU / Board side ..

Power with you ...



The software used is "Design spark PCB". Yes the 3D impression of SMDs are wrong, but I didn't bother. It makes everything looks gigantic and far from reality.

I will definitely sought help here when require. It is one of the objective of keeping things open in the forum.  Grin
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« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2020, 08:50:55 PM »
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3D printing won't help in such design given the amount of strength and pressure they come into.

@tonyStark Skyroot has recently 3D printed their rocket engine. They said it reduced the weight by 50% and significantly cut the lead time.

Isn't it possible to 3D print the jet engine as well?
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« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2020, 10:06:43 PM »
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3D printed rocket engine not something new. SpaceX superdraco engine was 3D printed and tested in 2014. The most critical engine part is the combustion chamber which was printed using DLMS method in inconel. All other parts are relatively easier to print with normal alloys and metals. Printing inconel is a challenge. "Relativity" a company formed by x spacex employee is also 3D printing rocket parts.

But serious congratulations to Skyroot, they did it. This is a positive development in 3D printing technology.

Regarding jet engine (model ones), its not impossible. Only critical component here is the NGV and Turbine blade both are steel alloy and mostly made in Inconel. You need such machine to print these part and test it. Infact a company in Russia has recently printed a complete jet engine and tested it too. A company in Europe are also testing these methods. Even you don't have to look far, Intech DMLS (An Indian company) has also printed and tested model jet engine.

Welcome to Industry 4.0.

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« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2020, 10:33:24 PM »
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Only if I could understand all your verbiage  Drool
Having said that, do you guys have any plans to build turboprop/turbofan engines too?
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« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2020, 11:56:08 AM »
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very good progress tony subscribed  Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up
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« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2020, 11:33:10 PM »
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3D printing won't help in such design given the amount of strength and pressure they come into.

@tonyStark Skyroot has recently 3D printed their rocket engine. They said it reduced the weight by 50% and significantly cut the lead time.

Isn't it possible to 3D print the jet engine as well?

A correction is needed here. According to their twitter, post they have used 100% 3D printed injector. Injector is a part of rocket engine essentially where the fuel mix happens and then it is pushed towards the throat and then to thrust cone.

They have not printed a complete rocket engine, just a part of it. The Indian media couldn't understand this and trimmed the injector from their tweet and they printed the entire rocket engine......just ...like....that...

 Hats Off
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« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2020, 10:28:11 PM »
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Update:

Its been a while I posted here. There has been a lot of progress on the engine development and so this is going to be a long post.

Combustion chamber:

The combustion chamber was designed and has been manufactured now. The prototype is made from high temperature SS sheet. The main combustion chamber body has been cut, drilled and then rolled. It was then spot welded in place at appropriate current. The side faces were round cut from the same material and then initially cold rolled and then hot rolled to relieve stresses to make the end flanges. All were assembled and spot welded together. Central section has been brazed for additional strength at high temperature.

Diffuser outer and compressor cover

After milling the diffuser, the next step was to make its outer and then the compressor cover. Making the diffuser was relatively simple only the inner curve should match the diffuser end curve to fit perfectly.
The compressor cover is very tricky as you first need to find the radius of the compressor wheel and then follow the same radius on the cover inner. Once the radius is found, the same is carved out diligently on the cover inner and then some tolerance is added to it for the desired gap between the two. The efficiency of a compressor is dependent on this tolerance. too short and you risk ramming the compressor into its cover while running, too high and the compressor won't be able to develop req. pressure.

Once done all parts are fitted together to check the clearance and mating accuracy. All parts are required to be perfectly concentric to avoid any misalignment. Mis-alligned parts has bad ramification which must be avoided.

Once all parts are fine tuned and clearances are checked. I final assembly was done to check the fit. I shaft is given a spin to check if anything is obstructing the rotation. Initially I kept 0.1mm gap at the turbine end but I figured out that the starting temperature gradient may cause the wheel to jam against the NGV or it may even break it. I have increased the gap a little to safe standard.

Balancing:

It is needless to mention the importance of balancing for the rotor system. A well balanced system will produce less sound, will be hazardous free, the bearing will last more, free from cyclic stresses etc. When you are going to run a machine at 1 lac rpm, it becomes imperative.

So I kept the shaft assembly on the balancing cradle. The balancing cradle is completely in-house designed. It can detect a flee size imbalance in the system. But this level of precision is not required usually. There are two method to balance the component. either you go part wise balancing or you just balance whole assembly at once. I prefer the second approach. After reaching a satisfactory results, the assembly is taken off the cradle and will not be disturbed till final assembly.

Fuel ring:

Some progress on fuel line has also been made. The fuel line is made of Brass. The tube has been rolled in appropriate size and is ready for taking the injectors.

You can find all these in the attached photos.

MVIMG_20191117_001555.jpg
Re: Kick starting jet turbine project (60N class)
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« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2020, 10:33:22 PM »
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Some more pics:


IMG_20200823_152137.jpg
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« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2020, 10:43:50 PM »
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Logging in to this forum after quiet a long time....
This seems to be a rather interesting thread.... any updates?
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« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2020, 07:43:54 PM »
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Hello folks,

Its been a while since the last update. Kept busy with lot of stuff going on here and there. The post is to let everyone know that the thread is alive and will reach it completion without any iota of doubt.

Current status:

The engine is almost ready. I can say 80%. Only the fuel and lub. lines are to be installed along with the thrust cone. The first run essentially will be without the cone so you can say once the fuel lines are ready, the engine will be up for firing.

There has been a lot of other activities that is consuming my time these days along with some other critical projects. I am parallely contemplating a design of 300N class monster. Some work on the ECUs programming is also in progress.

Given the status all the projects, I don't expect TS60 to run in next 2-3 week. Once I get some time I will complete this build. Hopefully sooner.

Stay put !!! Thrill is yet to come !!! Giggle
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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2020, 12:11:13 AM »
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@tonystark,

The author of the last post is a highly accomplished guy (with patent in related fields)

This is for your info.
Contact him if you wish.

Regards

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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2020, 11:46:49 PM »
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Yes Sir,

I received some messages from him. This is where such forum helps people know and connect.
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« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2020, 11:53:17 PM »
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Hello folks,

Posting after a long while. Apologies for not been active here. The year is about to end and I wanted to let you know the state of progress so far and update you what's coming.

The work on TS60 is on halt for the last 2 months due to material problem. Pandemic thing as taken a toll. This is likely to resolve by mid Jan, which will lead to its combustion ring completion and then testing. You will see an update on this fairly soon.

Meanwhile we have undertaken two more project on turbo based jet engine and the work is in design stage. The monster 300N (TS300T)project is one of them (to cater to UAV market) and the other one will be of 150N(TS150T) class.

Many other ancillary project has been completed in last 3-4 months and has now freed the bandwidth to focus on the core. 2021 will be a happening year where you will see things moving at higher pace with all prototype engines coming to completion, launch of the website, registering of X-gen etc. and by year end or start of new year 2021, 2 of the jet variant will be available for the market.

The initial engines will be offered to a small group of people at reduced prices for design consolidation, especially to those who are venturing into some domain where they need the engine to realize certain goal. This is to unable our startup friends who are seeking to use of such technologies.

This, in any sense, does mean that only startup folks will have the taste of the engine first. Being bootstrap, the rate with which we will be able to produce the engines will be low and thus we won't be able to cater to a large set of people initially. They will be prioritized if they need it. You will see an early bird application page by mid of the year 2021.

The scenario will change if we are able to secure some funding in the process and can ramp up the production. But essentially 2021 is going to be a year of design consolidation, completion and launching of the products to testers.

Its going to be fun. Stay tuned.

BTW, cheers for Skyroot on test firing their solid state engines. Way to go team !!!

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