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« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2009, 05:36:19 PM »
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VTOL - Vertical Take Off & Landing



thanks atul bhaiya
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« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2009, 04:52:07 PM »
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Hi Subbu,
Sorry to hear you did not bag the prize, given your report about the competition, you deserved to win.

Some questions though....

1) did you leave the EDF on the firewall or were they covered? its not clear from the pictures. If left open, then would like to know why you switched to EDF if you were not housing them inside tubes.

2) what were the final specs like? in terms of length, wingspan, weight etc.....

Pankaj
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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2009, 11:35:38 AM »
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thanks anwar bhaiya i will remember it for my whole life

subbu

Worst thing that you could do would be to hang up the project since the event is over. Continue with the model, the concept behind the way this aircraft is designed  and over time ......     innovate!!! You may find many things that don't work and in the process learn many many things that do.
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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2009, 06:01:02 PM »
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VTOL - Vertical Take Off & Landing



Hi Subbu,
Sorry to hear you did not bag the prize, given your report about the competition, you deserved to win.

Some questions though....

1) did you leave the EDF on the firewall or were they covered? its not clear from the pictures. If left open, then would like to know why you switched to EDF if you were not housing them inside tubes.

2) what were the final specs like? in terms of length, wingspan, weight etc.....

Pankaj

yes they were covered and the vertical stab cum speedbrake was at its top it was just that it was removed for battery access.
ok i know the weight that is 2 kg stationary and 1.5 kg during flight
(As i remove the robotics arm and other equipment prior to flight)
the length is about 100cms or 1 metre
and i have yet to check the wing span

thanks anwar bhaiya i will remember it for my whole life

subbu

Worst thing that you could do would be to hang up the project since the event is over. Continue with the model, the concept behind the way this aircraft is designed  and over time ......     innovate!!! You may find many things that don't work and in the process learn many many things that do.

yes i will i am thinking of making it even lighter and do something more with it thanks

subbu
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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2009, 09:51:35 PM »
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brilliant work!!
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« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2009, 01:13:47 AM »
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pickles,
I hope you have overcome the grief of not winning the competition by now.Because what I am going to write will cause a lot more grief than you have ever experienced  >Cheesy.
Your aim is to have a model of space shuttle with which you can explain how the real space shuttle works. All that one can do to achieve that is building a static model with manually operated cargo hatch doors at best  along with a video show of various stages of the space shuttle's voyage.

The real space shuttle is a reusable platform which can carry astronauts and equipment into the space for ISC and bringing astronauts to earth from the ISC,etc. The unique feature of a space shuttle is that you need not ditch it after a single flight and reuse it for several voyages be cause after entering the earth's atmosphere the shuttle can be landed like a normal air plane. The landing may seem similar to the landing of an air plane but they are completely different.

The real space shuttle is launched into space vertically at the time of blast off  using giant detachable external booster Rockets to propel the shuttle into the space and smaller external detachable rockets are used to control the trajectory of the shuttle. these booster rockets are jettisoned after they did their work at various altitudes and various stages of the launch to put the shuttle into the space.The angle of entry into space and time etc are prefixed and only after entering into the space the pilot takes control of the shuttle and proceeds to the ISC and docks with it.

Similarly on the return journey to earth, the place,time,angle of entry into earth's atmosphere etc  are pre calculated to land the shuttle at a particular landing site. After entering the earth's atmosphere all that the pilot can do is follow the pre determined flight trajectory and guide the shuttle to the landing spot and it is a one chance only because if the pilot misses the landing spot he could not gain altitude again and try to land  like in case of a conventional because the shuttle is not capable of flying like a conventional air plane. The shuttle can only be landed under power only. without power it would drop like brick. No dead stick landings are possible. To the best of my knowledge that is how a space shuttle works. I may be wrong though.

The model you have built could not explain anything about the real shuttle in any way. That is why you lost the competition.

And it could not be called an RC Model plane either because it does not look like , at least to me, as flight capable  >Cheesy. Prove me wrong  Violent(you really don't have to prove to anybody though...) and nobody would be more happier than me  Salute. A flight demo video would suffice. Also explain your power set up. Tell me how you wired the three ducted fan brushless motors. How you achieved control of the motors.  Head Scratching Which Radio system did you use. On which channels did you place each motor and how you trimmed each motor so that all three motors are providing identical thrust.

More questions to follow.

---Rao.         
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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2009, 07:11:41 AM »
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Subu ,

I agree with Mr Rao on some of the points especially the flight part 3 EDF's on the kind of air frame looks  out of proportion for the air frame  especially considering the wing area , as per me the delta design requires wing area to sustain the plane in the air , the wing area in your model does not seem to be sufficient to support the load  secondly EDF's  do not provide rated thrust unless they are enclosed in a air tight duct  , I could be wrong  hence a flight Video would be interesting  to see.

The other thing you have to understand when it come to competitions  is  to understand the competition requirements , sensation, spectacular  demos etc is normally not required , the judges are normally knowledgeable  and matured individuals who tend to filter out sensation and hype  and look to basic criterion
eg
if the competition required only  a static model   and I was one of the judges I would not give a single point for a flying model  in fact I might  actually consider it a show off element and get prejudiced and look at that particular model with a very very critical angle , in fact some might even  start applying criterion to that model  which would not be applied to others because I would like to level out the field for those who are disadvantaged by not knowing to fly  . Some might even consider it a way by which the competitor is trying to cover up other details deficiencies in the Model.
In fact I understand something similar happened at the IIT M Shastra gliding competition where they allowed the glider to be flown by some one else if the  competitors did not know to fly , this was because they were looking for design and not flying as their criterion.

So my advice to you is learn from this  unlike a forum where people clap for any small achievement considering your age when you are in a competition among your age group you have to understand the competitions requirement keep it simple and meet the requirement over kill actually puts off many . A competition is not a forum .

Sai

PS : Waiting to see some flight Video's from you on your other planes as well.
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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2009, 02:39:04 PM »
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Subu ,

I agree with Mr Rao on some of the points ....

So my advice to you is learn from this  unlike a forum where people clap for any small achievement considering your age when you are in a competition among your age group you have to understand the competitions requirement keep it simple and meet the requirement over kill actually puts off many . A competition is not a forum .

Sai

PS : Waiting to see some flight Video's from you on your other planes as well.

Exccellent!. i completely agree with sai. Wonderfull, sincere, and frank advice to a youngster, it remindes me a proverb in malayalam " the words of learned and matured people will be sour when you hear for the first time, but  will turn sweet later on like Goosberry"
on a lighter vein, are you going to be a judge sai? for any event.. why,  For sure,  i do not want to participate. Huh?

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« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2009, 03:54:10 PM »
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VTOL - Vertical Take Off & Landing



pickles,
I hope you have overcome the grief of not winning the competition by now.Because what I am going to write will cause a lot more grief than you have ever experienced  >Cheesy.

And it could not be called an RC Model plane either because it does not look like , at least to me, as flight capable  >Cheesy. Prove me wrong  Violent(you really don't have to prove to anybody though...) and nobody would be more happier than me  Salute. A flight demo video would suffice. Also explain your power set up. Tell me how you wired the three ducted fan brushless motors. How you achieved control of the motors.  Head Scratching Which Radio system did you use. On which channels did you place each motor and how you trimmed each motor so that all three motors are providing identical thrust.

More questions to follow.

---Rao.         

 i just thought that people would like to see a model and making a working model was not meant to harm anyone. and please rule out the age criteria as i don't like it being mentioned again and again if anybody has a problem keep it to yourself.

i am attending the science exhibition for 2 years now and i know the peculiarities of the project. rao uncle you might never know how i am feeling right now and the hard work put in the project

the third part please we had about 2 months of research in this project and i know what the space shuttle can do and how it does it i don't need a big explanation on a topic as i know it and if there is something extra please tell me. and everything about the soliod rocket boosters and external tank and even the precise time at which they are jettisoned coz we had to know it all as any question could be asked.

the model explains details as close to real as possible. it has most of its parts working.

the models top cover and exhaust nozzles were removed for access and nozzle as it was the last part of the plane to go in and hence had to be painted.

coming to the explanations part

1. explanation of launch orbit and reentry with flight videos of model and comparison with original one
2. explanation of parts of the space shuttle with practically working parts
3. motive behind the project

and if any one feels that i  am lying you can call the dav officials and ask them then your doubts might be even more cleared.

i will post even a circuit diagram for all those people who dont understand me

the three motors were wired together using y cables that is 2 escs with their positive wire removed and then y cabled so only one esc powers the system the esc were programmed for soft start up and with a bit of trimming i got them working together. (i am using identical parts 3 same edfs and 3 same esc's)

each duct can provide precisely 900grams of thrust without intake ring and with it it goes to about 1kg

the radio i used was airtronics rds 8000 2.4 ghz 8ch tx and rx system

each motors identical thrust was checked at ground by placing it on a movable bed and calibrated

i dont want to refute anyone but just felt bad and wanted to clear all doubts

sai uncle the plane utilizes three jet engines (the real one) and hence the model uses three edfs aligned at exact angle as the original

the planes wings create enough lift to get this model airborne i will put up the pics of airfoil and wing data in forthcoming posts

the festivals name is khoj and the director mr. K B Kushal was the one person behind this festival and he appreciated and gave us 30000 rupees for the vtol and 15000 rs for the space shuttle project and hence the static model question is ruled out.

i dont need to show off my project you just need to have some faith in it and the spirit to go on and continue and  thats all. ok so it was about two years ago i never even knew to fly at the time i was disadvantaged.and got a lot of help from you guys and i appreciate it (especially sai uncle and pramod bhaiya and chan bhaiya). and the good thing we did this time was to invite people to our kharghar field to just learn more about rc flight and more

the model we built had been built 3 times as first two times it did not fly as we wanted it to and we even went on to try kf airfoils

the whole criteria was space shuttle and how uniquely and better you can make one there is no where mentioned that it should never be flown or whatever.

and finally the video of the flight shall be up very very soon as i am busy this week trying some kf airfoils on the planes and the new pulama plane and i know many of u might think its a cover that it cant fly or whatever and hence let it bee if i had the time i would like to put in a video of the plane right away

and all the advices given are appreciated especially sai uncle who can be called one of my mentors as he was the very first people i talked to regarding rc

and finally the project was one of the toughest ones and after putting in lot of hard work on it . though i never felt like crying tears rolled out of my eyes and i felt sad for my schools principal mam as she had trusted us so much and i felt so bad. and that is something natural for me.

subbu

ps - i sincerely apologize if i hurt anyone in this post Cry Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2009, 05:17:02 PM »
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 Clap  Clap Clap Great response Subbu. I suppose ppl went overboard on how to do a class project for a school competition. Which is not part of this forum at all. Agree that we all know (via google search) how rockets fly. This is just an RC hobby forum and we just share our experiences, related activities and our flying machines. No point declaring how each of us would do the same thing or even judge the same things.

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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2009, 05:26:17 PM »
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Subbu -

First and foremost, I hope that you realize that the people who are commenting here are all your well-wishers  Smiley  They are offering comments with your long term future in mind, with brotherly affection.

I had my own concerns/doubts about such a model being able to sustain stable flights, and I feel it is no wonder others felt the same.
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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2009, 05:33:15 PM »
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TG ,
If a school project is put up on a rc forum that is the way it will be judged  >Cheesy
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« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2009, 09:39:17 PM »
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Guys.. I hope we did not forget the famous saying - "With enough thrust, anything can fly". Subbu has 3 EDFs to power that thing and I do not see a reason why it shouldn't fly. Eventhough the model has a low wing area it should fly stable with enough (higher)airspeed.

And Subbu,

Most scratch builder tend to ask questions on other builders work. There might be constructive criticism as well.. If you have managed to stir up their minds then you are doing a fine job.. No worries, just be happy and continue building/flying. BTW, videos are a must for all scratch builds.. without it the thread is incomplete!

-Ismail

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« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2009, 10:03:43 PM »
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VTOL - Vertical Take Off & Landing



THANKS FOR all the advices and i have taken them all in constructive manner but it is just that some comments offend people maybe its becoz of the the language used. and for some which i felt they offended me and hence i responded to them i in no mean meant to hurt or insult anyone and i know that most of the advices are taken up but the post by rao uncle just i dont know why ....

ok now finally i again wish to apologize to people who have been hurt and i mean no harm.

just a final part

TG ,
If a school project is put up on a rc forum that is the way it will be judged  >Cheesy

Huh? Huh?

Subu ,
The other thing you have to understand when it come to competitions  is  to understand the competition requirements , sensation, spectacular  demos etc is normally not required , the judges are normally knowledgeable  and matured individuals who tend to filter out sensation and hype  and look to basic criterion
eg
if the competition required only  a static model   and I was one of the judges I would not give a single point for a flying model  in fact I might  actually consider it a show off element and get prejudiced and look at that particular model with a very very critical angle , in fact some might even  start applying criterion to that model  which would not be applied to others because I would like to level out the field for those who are disadvantaged by not knowing to fly  . Some might even consider it a way by which the competitor is trying to cover up other details deficiencies in the Model.

So my advice to you is learn from this  unlike a forum where people clap for any small achievement considering your age when you are in a competition among your age group you have to understand the competitions requirement keep it simple and meet the requirement over kill actually puts off many . A competition is not a forum .

Sai

finally thanks izmile bhaiya and i would put up the video as soon as possible

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« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2009, 10:26:06 PM »
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Guys.. I hope we did not forget the famous saying - "With enough thrust, anything can fly". Subbu has 3 EDFs to power that thing and I do not see a reason why it shouldn't fly. Eventhough the model has a low wing area it should fly stable with enough (higher)airspeed.

-Ismail

It is not a question of flight being "impossible", it is more of a question of "how stable" the flight is.  At least that is the part I was wondering about.  After all, rockets with pretty much no wing area also do fly in a stable manner.

If this resulted in a few flight videos being posted, that would be so cool  Wink
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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2009, 10:50:03 PM »
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Mayday..!! Mayday..! videos please.!! Cheesy
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« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2009, 03:58:32 AM »
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First and foremost, I hope that you realize that the people who are commenting here are all your well-wishers    They are offering comments with your long term future in mind, with brotherly affection.
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« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2009, 04:22:05 AM »
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Raoji Wink  What's up with quoting me verbatim Head Scratching  

You know this is all copylefted stuff !  Grin  Giggle
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« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2009, 04:23:50 AM »
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Hey pikle

"FAILURES ARE THE STEPPING STONES FOR SUCCESS"
we all have gone through it..in all spheres of life.

Don't get disheartened ...win the next competition Thumbs Up

as far as the criticism goes..no matter whatever is the intention of the person..my advice...always take it in a constructive manner. Will always help you..and hell yeah put up a video...we all want to see that thing fly.
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« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2009, 05:17:09 AM »
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Raoji Wink  What's up with quoting me verbatim Head Scratching 

You know this is all copylefted stuff !  Grin  Giggle
Anwar Sahib I was trying to place your words in my post as a reference so that pickle would understand that I was not trying to insult him. In my previous post I clearly stated that If I am proved wrong nobody would be more happier  than me. But instead of appearing as a quote it appeared as if I had typed that post.
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« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2009, 10:49:24 AM »
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VTOL - Vertical Take Off & Landing



well as i said i meant no harm and have taken it up as constructive critisicm only and i just felt i had to reply to some posts and i know that no one wants to insult me and nor do i want to.

subbu
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« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2009, 12:29:07 AM »
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Many a times, constructive criticism is the hardest to accept when it is most required/apt. So maybe we should leave it at that.

Pankaj
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