RC India

Hi all,
can any one tell me how to get a large number of magnets[little powerful ones-size no bar]
i want them as i plan to build a maglev vehicle
first it will be a maglev car/train
which will be later modified as a plane with the runway as the maglev track
later again modded to become a boat/car hybrid with the flight capabilities when it land out of the maglev track
plan to do it step by step
but first i need 100-200 similar or same magnets[2 on each side of the track distanced1-2cm apart...track to be of 50-100 cm in length depending on the no. of magnets....also will get some really powerful magnets and place them towards the end giving it a high lift for the flight at take off]
so i need a economical source for it[or tell me how to make a power electromagnet if it is cheaper-main thing i cannot give it external power and if a electromagnet then it must be power by a battery...weight 1 kg max for the track
the vehicle i'll manage thats not the problem
so please guys help me out
please let me get the magnets then i'll see the other things

They used to sell elliptical magnets called "Rattlesnake Eggs" on the footpaths of New Delhi @ Rs.15/- per pair. They are quite powerful, but I don't remember how the polarity was oriented.You could try and source them or try and pry out magnets from old speakers. Back in the US, they sell 1000 magnet sets for science projects. Try Googling it.

All the best!

ok will try that out
any other way to get'em?

Try deal extreme, they are cheaper than HC magnets, and they sell in 100s, not sure how powerfull they are but they are rare earth ones.

ya i m checking them out
any other local cheap source of magnets[except those rattle snake magnets]

Ankur,

Check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QunBD_fD04k&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDcBqwRJCyg&feature=player_embedded

http://mekonik.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/arduino-magnet-levitation/



Sanjay

Hi Ankur

I think you will have to use electromagnets for your maglev track (using electromagnet on the train would make it heavy). The maglev track has electromagnets laid one after another and their polarity keeps on changing depending on the polarity of the magnet on the train above it. The polarity is so adjusted that the magnets on the track always push the magnets (on the train) ahead of them and pull the magnets (on the train) behind them. The frequency of change of the polarity is also dependent on the speed of the train.

Have you thought of how you would achieve the same effect ??? Or if you have some other way of achieving it do let us know.


Regards
Ankur Kaul

well i plan to make all the poles static
one side of the track will be N pole opp. to n pole of the base of the vehicle and vice versa
so if it is a electromagnet it should be in such a way that 1 side has only n pole at the top while other has s
i wouldn't actually prefer electromagnets

the vehicle to be propelled by using direct drive motor[gdp -5] with 1s lipo battery and using a car circuit[1 channel which allows forward backward movement]

Oh i get it...you are using magnets just to levitate the vehicle and not propulsion  ;). What i mentioned earlier would be true if you were planning to propel through the magnets too as in a real maglev vehicle.


Are you using any prop on the motor???

I think I may have some good news for you. You owe me a Chocolate for this!

http://cgi.ebay.in/Sujok-Star-Magnets-100-pcs-for-Rs-100-Su-jok-Therapy_W0QQitemZ300399892134QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_203?hash=item45f13a96a6

http://cgi.ebay.in/Byol-Magnets-for-Su-jok-sujok-Therapy-100pcs_W0QQitemZ300399891713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_203?hash=item45f13a9501

Cheers!

Uncle VC ;D

VC sir,sent u a pm check it
these magnets are not useful for my purpose
i think i should go for the dealextreme ones

What is the proposed length of your track?

will depend on no. of magnets
100cm if i have 200 magnets[2 on each side placed 1cm apart in length and 1" in breadth]

Check my post:

http://www.rcindia.org/tools-materials-and-building-techniques/mini-magnets-for-attaching-panels/msg14898/#new

sir,
if u can let us know the prices of the magnets it would be great

any other options??

Dont worry too much ankur, if you have to build out of the ordinary, you cant build it very cheap ;) Try some local store where they sell electonics/electrical stuff. I heard that Ashta buys magnets from SP road in bangalore. Any similar street in your city might be helpful. Try PM'ing Ashta and he may help you by telling you what kinda store he got the magnets from.

hi all!!
i have not yet started on the project-i m waiting for 200 magnets to come from dealsextreme[not yet ordered waiting for amir bhaiya to do it..] . i will put them 1.5" apart[breadth wise to have a pair of them along the length] and 2cm  apart lenght wise so with 200 magnets i'll be getting a 1m maglev track
i m into micro rc and will use it to launch my planes so they get an additional lift and a very easy takeoff[i will put some very strong magnets from hobbyking in the end of the track so it just throws it into the air]
and for the plane i'll put opposite magnets place a distance apart on the planes fuse/landing gear[if any]

the track will be like this

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
 the bold italic letters are poles of strong magnets
where n is north pole of the magnet and s is the south pole
distance between n and s pole is 1.5 inch
distance between two n / two s will be 2cm

and i will put magnets on the fuse of the plane like this

S S S S S S S S SSSSSS

N N N N N N N NNNNN

where n is north pole of the magnet and s is the south pole
 the bold italic letters are poles of strong magnets

hope u all got my idea
this the is cheapest and a good method of making a maglev

link of dealextreme magnets
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.13518
 hobbycity magnets
http://hobbycity.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=8288

hope u all got me
lets see if it works!!

-ANkur

I had ordered the silver colour magnets and the brown colour both from hobby city. The silver ones though very attractive, they were not much repulsive. But the brown colour ones(square) were both very attractive and repulsive. In fact they are so strong that, my mom was not able to separate 2 magnets ;).

And I on the other hand had to struggle to separate 2 of them, they are both very brittle. They brown ones are so brittle, if you allow 2 magnets attach each other by their own force, a piece of magnet falls off. Be careful handling them, if you drop them from height, they will break.

Also they are not as big as you see in the pic.

well i will them just fix them with glue and tape so brittleness doesn't matter
they all suit my job!

Ankur
how u plan to keep the vehicle stable on the track.if one magnet is out of place just a bit it may unbalance the vehicle.
All maglev have guide rail till now.If any new tech has come up do share..
All the best..

well i'll put them in such a way that it is balences
this the the front view of the vehicle

||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|<magnet>                                    <magnet>|
|                                                                        |
|  |<magnet>                              <magnet>|  |
|  ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||  |
   |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 

the upper portion is the vehicle whereas the lower portion is the track
the extra material toward the ground of the vehicle will not allow it to get unbalenced
hope u all got what i mean!!
if any there any variation in power the vehicle will bump like its going on a road!!!

Cheers
-Ankur

here is a link which describes how to build a ultra simple maglev
http://amasci.com/maglev/train.html
the principle i m using is nearly the same...expect for the balencing part in which it has the car bounded by walls on both sides whereas i have bounded the track by the down protuding fuse of the plane

i scavenged a old non working dc motor[actually 2 of them] and found some unique sort of magnets-they were in a circular shape but when i held them i found they are flexible
i have attached some pics of them
please tell me what they are??

some more ;)
i have broke them into peices so they can be used!!

proof of flexibility...  >:D >:D;);):P:P

found out a website for magnets..

thought would be useful..

http://www.supermagnetman.net/index.php

rgds

atul g.

that link was posted by me only in another thread so i know it
anyways they tend to  be more expensive then deal extreme ones
http://www.rcindia.org/rc-outlets-and-resellers/sourcer-of-magnetic-stuff/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4CugN0lXXw&feature=player_embedded

Hi Vinay.. what they show in video is using liquid nitrogen.. no way ankur can use it.

Ankur the dealextreme things are the cheapest and if they are rare-earth ones they'll be strong..  btw to check proof of concept u can also check it with any 'weaker' ones u have.

we had bought something similar to hobbyking ones, in the local market in Mumbai. one 33mm*13mm*3mm cost @Rs.60/- !!!
they are quite strong.
So dealextreme is the cheapest!!

Also like someone pointed u need to 'hold' the plane from the sides else it'll quickly flip.

Of course I knew it was liquid nitrogen, also god knows what material they were using, I did not bother to read. I just posted the video coz it was cool and related to maglev.

ok sir i'll use them[deal extreme ones]
and i have already checked the system using 4 magnets i got from earphones...
sir i have already mentioned my idea please tell if it is useful or not??

Hi ankur

If i have correctly understood your setup..here are some problems i think  you will face :

The green magnets are the ones you already have incorporated in your plan. If the forces F1 and F2 are different.. there will be a torque..clockwise or anti clockwise acting on the body of the plane. this will cause the plane to roll...so you should probably use another set of magnets to counter act torque..the ones in red.

Another thing to notice is the slipping tendency of the magnets...this may happen along the wingspan..the clearance between the body and the side supports should be as minimum as possible to counteract this.

Regards

but ankur sir mine idea is different...
ur support is only on the base and the fuse is inside the walls of the support
while in my system i am having two pair of support..one glued to fuse,second to base which the fuse one outside the base supports
so if there is any torque...the plane will try to roll but the outer supports will get collided in their way and will stop the roll
and i'll control that type of roll as u have mentioned in the second pic i'll place them on a  surface as flat as possible to avoid it
actually since magnets will be same it will not be there-or will be very little
i will use that force in the end by putting bigger magnets in the end so it throws the plane into the air
please rewiew my diagram quoted in my previous post..
this is something related to superconductor i guess???????

It is very difficult to understand the diagram...if possible try to draw it in on paper ( if possible in isometric view) and then click a pic and upload it here....

ok i'll draw it on open office drawing and post it

ok i made it here it is
I have corrected al flaws i posted in the previous image
now please comment and tell will this work

aha, not it is clear. My doubt is what if the plane moves slightly side wise and the friction between the walls becomes to high to move the plane? This should not be a problem if the thrust of the plane is high. But it will remove the smoothness that maglev intends to give.

well i'll try to lubricate the side for less friction and will think of some other idea

plz comment and tell if this all will work out???????

@vinay, i did mean to hurt you, it was just for info.. well, then again just for info the Black thing is actually a high Tc (critical temperature, typically @-100 to -150deg) superconductor, common are YBCO (Yttrium, Barium, Copper Oxide) complex.

@ankur why dont  you try a configuration like on the ship in the movie Matrix..

\__        __\                                    /__      __/
 \   \      \    \                                 /    /     /   /
  \NS\     \SN\                             /NS/    /SN/
    \__\      \__\                           /__/     /__/
     \               \______________/              /
       \                                                    /
         \____________________________/

This is just indicative.
there is no need to have NNNN/SSSSS configuration, instead all NNNNN/NNNNN or all SSSSS/SSSSS should also work, it'll eliminate your slip, throw, flip problem and there will be no need to attach hold as they will cause friction(read drag) no matter how u grease/oil it!
here you need to adjust the distances according to your plane's weight, so that it balances well and also the angle of the tilt! but thats relatively easy. And the 'V' shape (depth) will confine it.

 ;) ;D

@ankur Kaul i havent understood your second dia, please can you explain?

Hi mpp

lets assume that magnet 1 is fixed to the base. now if you bring another magnet 2 over it with the same poles facing each other..there are two things that can happen..either magnet 2 will flip over and stick to the magnet 1 or there will be a tendency of magnet 2 to slip over the mag 1 (along the magnetic lines of forces) as in from position 1 to position 2..this can happen from any side...you can see this with any magnets...fix one at the base and try leaving the other magnet over it..you will see for yourself.   i hope it is clear to you.

Regards

@ankur..vinay is right...the same case with the torque roll....i think it would be difficult to control the fricton with lube...remember its a micro rc plane...in my opinion do not add any weight on the plane...either support or lube...and as it is you have to add magnets to the plane..making it heavy will reduce the chance of success.

and adding strong magnets at the end..i dont think they can help you in throwing the plane in air...it may act as as speed bump too...just my thought. I would love if you prove me wrong....n dont call me sir please..i feel like a oldie.

sir what if in my same config build with same poles
i.e. i mean to say  i just use north poles all the way ???????

what if i gradually increase the power???

That would be like  slowly braking! If such a thing should work then you need to increase the power once the aero plane is over the magnet, which is not possible on fixed power magnets. So best thing is remove the bump. It may not be required at all. The plan provided by mpp above will save you some magnets. :)

First make a track of 5 to 10 cms. just tape the magnets with a thin tape and see how it works, which ever is successful, then you can build the whole track based on that plan.

ok will remove the bump..
and i didn't understand the mpp sirs idea
can someone post a drawing which describes it better... and with better and easier explanation

           __                                        __
\__       \   \                                    /   /      __/
 \   \      \SN\                                 /NS/    /   /
  \NS\      \__\                              /__/    /SN/
    \__\          \                           /         /__/
      \              \__PLANE BODY_ _/           /
         \                                             /
            \_________ TRACK_________/

Ankur its pretty easy. The above image is just a cross section of how the track looks like. Think like its looking like when you look the plane from its rear end or front end. In the above pic, the track magnets will not allow the plane to come down.
If the magnet power is not enough try adding a magnet below as well(near the word TRACK in the above image.).

ok i'll try using this.....
thanx to all for help!!!

Make sure the lower edge of the track is more narrower than in that image, this will effectively increase the magnets repulsive power. The walls of plane and track should be like 45 degree angle.

here it is

\__        __\                                    /__      __/
 \   \      \    \                                 /    /     /   /
  \NS\     \SN\                             /NS/    /SN/
    \__\      \__\                           /__/     /__/
     \               \______________/              /
       \                                                    /
         \____________________________/


just wondering if i use this configuration willn't the vehicle fall down??

can anyone tell me how to build a electromagnetic track